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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 3, 2014 - 10:41pm PT
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Hey Mal,
Are you bipolar?
Have you missed your meds?
If not, what's with the boatload of links, C&Ps and colorful, informative graphics? What's your point?
Sketch, what's your point?
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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CA Cap and Trade: It looks like much of the money will be wasted, esp on the High Speed Train. They is not a requirement of climate change policy, but in California it is standard procedure to set up massive new bureaucracies who siphon up the funding.
Other states: I suggest you don't follow our lead. Use a simple carbon tax, which in the long run we can push into WTO policy.
The reason we have this wasteful system is because it's too hard to sell a simple tax, because voters are idiots. So we never even took a vote on a simple tax. Rather than all these new programs, why not just dump the money in one line item into general education, or paying off debt?
see the summary chart on page 6 of
http://www.lao.ca.gov/reports/2014/budget/cap-and-trade/auction-revenue-expenditure-022414.pdf
Some of these things are good, just CA will waste half of it on admin.
Biggest item is High Speed Train, initial section to Nowhere, $31 billion.
Intro:
Several economists who have evaluated
California’s cap-and-trade program have estimated
that, over the life of the program, average allowance
price may be in the $15 to $20 range. If this were
to occur, total revenue for the program through
2020 could be roughly $15 billion. To the extent
that ARB does not increase the percentage of free
allowances, the above revenue estimates would be
higher.
Then it goes on to warn of lawsuits.
The biggest may be continuing lawsuits against the high speed train. It was voted in ONLY if it had a viable plan to need no subsidies. It has no such plan.
Here is a good example of how Cali will spend the money:
http://keepcaliforniaspromise.org/469/soon-every-faculty-member-will-have-a-personal-senior-manager
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Splat, Ur's are good post's inwhich i'll sleep on.
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Cragar
climber
MSLA - MT
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But know its the messenger and not the science, that turns people off.
True and sad for a society that is supposed to be 'smart'. Have we not learned to dig into the message as opposed to the messenger? Nope, lack of humility and giant egos feed into it. Also, after perusing this thread, it appears that most can't understand the science.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 4, 2014 - 07:38am PT
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But know its the messenger and not the science, that turns people off.
I don't agree with this statement; it's the message itself that turns people off.
An Inconvenient Truth was a very well-made movie. The "messenger", which is the movie and not Al Gore, was easy to watch and the points were well made. But people don't like the message it brings, so they ridicule the messenger. And they ridicule the host of the movie. Anything to discredit the message.
Simply, people don't want to hear that they have to change the way of life they are used to living. Instead, they will cry fowl, stomp their feet, and generally deny what is right in front of them. We see it in every page of this topic, and that can be extended to the general population at large.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 4, 2014 - 07:43am PT
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Please do state where "the science" has been installed as all knowing entity and should now never be questioned.
Nobody said that science is "all knowing." That's a silly remark and you can't make that statement in earnest without looking a bit silly yourself.
But people do trust science, and they trust their lives to it every day.
Western medicine. People trust the science behind it.
Viagra--men trust their cocks to the science behind the pill.
You yourself trust that your computer is going to correctly post your message to this forum topic. Do you ever question the keystrokes you make, wondering if they will find the right destination.
I doubt it, because you trust the science.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 4, 2014 - 07:53am PT
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The Chief. So quick to jump in with the hate.
[People] will cry fowl, stomp their feet, and generally deny what is right in front of them.
Thank you for proving my point, The Chief.
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WBraun
climber
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K-man -- "Simply, people don't want to hear that they have to change the way of life they are used to living.
Instead, they will cry fowl, stomp their feet, and generally deny what is right in front of them,"
Yes this is it in a nutshell.
The American general public can not for the life of them assimilate scientific data as presented by
scientist themselves.
They need practical real world examples that the average person can see for themselves in real time in their own communities.
Not mounds and mounds of mathematical formulas and piles of graphs and data.
Education needs practical layman's examples that can be assimilated by them.
You scientists are like freaks to the average person.
The human touch is far superior when backed by your mounds of math and data ........
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 4, 2014 - 08:04am PT
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A fool's paradise:
Anybody with a lack of critical thinking will gobble up this image. But I don't buy the message that the image is trying to convey--that the image in Gore's book is a snapshot of a day in history. That it is in fact a "photo" and not an illustration.
What is the context of Gore's illustration, The Chief? Is the book saying that this is what things might look like if we continue on our path, or does it really try to pass the illustration off as a day we have lived?
BTW, ever seen a picture of Katrina from space? Wow.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 4, 2014 - 08:14am PT
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Sketch, why don't you just graph the large decline from the highest peak in 1998 to the following trough?
Why or why not would that be just as telling as the graph you posted?
And, haven't we been over this before? In detail??
You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know.
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WBraun
climber
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Sketch
Nice job of spinning and twisting what I just said to fit your agenda.
Here's what I said;
"They need practical real world examples that the average person can see for themselves in real time in their own communities.
Not mounds and mounds of mathematical formulas and piles of graphs and data."
And what's the first thing you do, lol
Show a graph ......
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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The science underpinning CAGW is a twisted crock of shet. The underlying agenda has used climate change as the vehicle of choice to achieve the desired end. Kelly's post upstream ( "this changes everything"-if memory serves me correctly) says it all, discontent with the world as is and desire for a unrealistic uptopian fantasy. The morons pushing it here are either invested with their careers or brain dead sheep. The possibility of imposition of their nightmarish agenda prompts vigorous opposition from any rational person.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 4, 2014 - 08:35am PT
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Cherry picking?
Yes.
And we've been over this before. In detail.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 4, 2014 - 08:43am PT
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Rick, I don't often read or reply to your posts, but this statement did catch my attention:
Kelly's post upstream ( "this changes everything"-if memory serves me correctly) says it all, discontent with the world as is and desire for a unrealistic uptopian fantasy.
First, I'm impressed that you viewed the link and saw what Naomi Klein had to say. Personally, I believe that the wholesale "belief" that capitalism is the best economic system we can muster is in err. It has not worked well for most people living on the planet, and it has not worked well for the planet itself. Every system appears to be in decline. Except, perhaps, the system that enriches the most wealthy on the planet.
We must move past the model to something that is sustaining.
Well, I suppose we don't really have to.
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BigFeet
Trad climber
Texas
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So much has been said here from different view points that I now believe this thread only has a goal of who gets the last word.
30,000 replies here we come.
:)
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 4, 2014 - 08:52am PT
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Seriously, Al Gore's movie was well made???
Looks like The Chief has a beef with an awful lot of people who know movies:
An Inconvenient Truth (2006), Awards
But what do they know, when standing next to the incomparable The Chief.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Hey Sketch, can you explain why for over 1000 data points your trend lines only get close to the data for about 50?
Doesn't sound like a very "hi fidelity" trend...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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my career is ending, The Chief and I have absolutely nothing vested professionally, monetary or otherwise, in climate science.
You are making your usual loud, vulgar noises again. As befits your type.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 4, 2014 - 09:15am PT
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So much has been said here from different view points that I now believe this thread only has a goal of who gets the last word.
Actually, quite a few folks post here with the purpose of showing the latest climate science findings and other thoughts about the state of affairs. For example, I posted a link about a forward-thinking book that just came out, and one that addresses climate change and how our capitalistic model is one of the root causes.
The trouble is, the thread gets dragged into the gutter by people who are against these things. They scream loudly, and bring the discussion down to their level.
For example, we have climate scientists, and others, who can make an intelligent post on the latest discoveries. Then we have people, who couldn't understand a scientific paper if Mother Goose herself read it to them, critique their posts.
It's as if they are a skipping record, forever playing an out-of-tune chorus that you can't get out of your ear.
It's a crazy circle. But there's a lot of good information to discover here, if you can possibly clear out the noise.
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