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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 17, 2008 - 01:57am PT
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couple extra
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 17, 2008 - 01:57am PT
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Sorry bretheren that I haven't been able to keep up with the days slander but it still floors me.
Cosgrove, John Bachar and and a host of others with Cred debate Doug Robinson, Sean Jones and a host of others with Cred over Yosemite Ethics and Rock and Ice chimes in to inform us that its pathetic and ain't news! Way too many people to credit but Andy obviously has no clue who is talking about.
Career theatening Gaff Idiot stick!
If reading and writing about climbing is so off the mark, as Andy implies, maybe he should consider a new line or work?
Peace
karl
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 17, 2008 - 01:58am PT
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for good measure
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Apr 17, 2008 - 02:03am PT
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Matt, fake and artificially bloated numbers are just like... fake.... your're stick clipping it dude.
Mildly on topic: R and I its puppets are so Rob Halford. No wonder the mags are wasting away from a steady diet of anemic worker bees, bereft of original ideas and as clueless as a baby still covered in sticky womb sauce.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 17, 2008 - 02:12am PT
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russ-
i prefer to think of it as having pre-inspected it
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apr 17, 2008 - 02:35am PT
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Somewhere back about post #27, someone repeated the quote from John Salathe: "Vy can't ve chust climb?" [Misspellings intentional.] To some extent, Andrew's blog restates that, at somewhat greater length. Which is fine, as far as it goes. The point of the exercise (if there is any) is to climb.
Still, as we all used to say to our mothers "He started it". Andrew is the Senior Editor of Rock & Ice. I'm not sure how that differs from the Editor-in-Chief, the Editor, or the Exclusive Editor, but R&I has them, too. Andrew, or at least the editors, published an eloquent and well illustrated essay on a new climb on Half Dome, an iconic hill in an iconic ditch, written by someone with a lot of history and influence in our community. (I devoured it.) Having thrown the stone, he (and those who created the route) can't complain if it caused ripples. Whether they were anticipated is another question.
As the article was published in Rock & Ice, there might have been some symmetry had the subsequent debate occurred on its forum. (It might also have generated visits = revenue.) The world doesn't work in such a tidy manner, and it happened on SuperTopo instead. Having read all 1,489 + posts, and contributed a few of them, I'd say that there's been a healthy and for the most part civil discussion. It was almost inevitable that it would happen here, and in retrospect, it's only surprising that it took so long before it happened. The ST discussion may not have come up with any solutions, but it may at least have helped define and analyze the situation, and inform whatever happens next. It also provides some context and perspective about how we got where we are, and where we might go.
I'm not sure how familiar Andrew is with the ST community. Not just who it is that is involved, and their history, but also that we are a community. Bearing in mind that 80% or more (?) of us are "lurkers", or only post intermittently. Many of us have shared pasts and experiences, and then there's all the things we now do together (SushiFests, FaceLift, the recent JTree golden oldies rendezvous...) that build on that. ST reinforces and facilitates the linkages, and builds on them - although many of us were already connected. But there's a lot more than that - there's information and discussion on ST that you can't find anywhere else. Lots of content and entertainment, available virtually free - a publisher's nightmare. Mixed in with lots of dross and noise, of course - no editing, and little censorship. Bad posts will always threaten to drive out the good, a la Crowley.
My guess is that a sociologist would see ST as a real community - shared experiences, ethos, and so on. We're a bunch of happy anarchists, but there's a certain rough justice when things get out of hand. And, most importantly, it is inclusive and egalitarian, and aware of its roots, which is a lot of what climbing is all about. At the same time, open to new contributors - we don't suffer fools gladly, but my guess is that the median age is slowly lowering, to our benefit. It's one way for us all to learn from each other. And, if we want to talk about something, we don't insist that others listen, though we hope they will. (No one said Andrew had to read the thread, although he perhaps should have before he blogged.)
Winston Churchill famously said "Better jaw jaw than war war". He knew what he was talking about. Even if the discussion here had been as Andrew claims, it would still be better than someone simply doing whatever she/he felt was the "right" thing to do. (Although that would probably sell a few magazines...) That could still happen, but I suspect it's less likely than it was. The climbing community, and therefore ST, loves debate and discussion. Style is very important to us, and the debate between means and ends is a fundamental human question. All the more reason to have these discussions - even if they subtract a little from our climbing time. Bearing in mind that there may be larger concerns at stake than the merely stylistic, and that others may be quietly observing this.
The world of publishing is ferociously competitive, and threatened by the "new media". Virtually all major traditional news media are losing circulation, and scrambling to adapt. It's also hard to make money out of a website, even if linked to a newspaper or magazine. Add to that a pending U.S. recession, and competition in the world of climbing periodicals. There are five + in North America - R&I, Climbing, Gripped, Alpinist, and Urban Climber. Will all of them survive? I support most of them, and wish them the best.
The magazines also have the challenges of demographics, a perhaps fragmenting market, and overall declining participation in outdoor activities, especially amongst the young.
Perhaps eventually forums like ST, in context of websites, will come to have an even larger role in generating discussion and even conclusions. I couldn't say. The world is changing quickly, though, and that can be discomfiting for anyone. Also, the news media often like to think of themselves as "opinion leaders", or at least in touch with the zeitgeist. If they're not "in touch", and perceived to be, it can affect their credibility. Readers, not to mention subscribers, can be fickle.
Edit: I see that Ed has said many of the same things, perhaps more eloquently, up thread. Free speech and democracy really are wonderful things.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Apr 17, 2008 - 02:43am PT
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One more observation that was somehow lost on Andrew Bishart. A lot of the climbing forums have 'moderators' who are basically there to police the content and discussions to keep everything 'civil' and 'nice.' SuperTopo doesn't have 'moderators' and doesn't seem to need them. I think that speaks very highly of the participants and the quality of the discussions we have here on SuperTopo.
Bruce
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 17, 2008 - 02:59am PT
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Something in here smells funny....
Did somebody step in something?
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 17, 2008 - 08:40am PT
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This is absolutely the funniest part of "Andyfest" to me.
First, he lurked. He couldn't help it. His mag had covered the climb, and then posted an "Oh my Gawd, look at the numbers" comment. He just had to get an eyeful.
Next, he was put off by all the spelling and grammar errors. This and the fact that all this lively attention was going to a virtual campfire and not his mag was just too much.
Then he placed himself on a wee pedestal above all this "unreal" discussion, and went to write about it at his own little campfire, where HE gets to be the authority. This was the moment where he got some on his shoe....
He dissed us! Instead of jumping in and letting his opinion be known here, where he might have elevated his cred and his mag, he took his ball and went home. Some of our Supertopo brothers called him on it right at his campfire instead of rubbing his back.
Then he continued to lurk....he just couldn't help himself!! He knew the word was out, so he rapped in from the top to take a looksee instead of climbing the damn thing from the bottom like he should have.
Oh my gawd, these irrelevant, irreverant Supertopians were really taking the mickey out of him now....grrrrrr...
So he did exactly what he said was so bogus. He jumped in, spoke up and participated in this unreal, disconnected from reality discussion!! But he got more dog doo on his shoe and made it sound like his opinion was more important. He made it sound like he was giving the last word from the mighty R&I.
And now, here's the best part....drumroll please....
He's stuck in permanent lurker status!! He's too cool to be in this conversation! He already said so! He's a "real" climber!
But now the conversation is about him, so he will continue to lurk! He has too, he just can't help himself.......
BWAHAHA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!
Oh yeah, Half Dome, Growing Up, Half Dome, Growing Up Dome, Half Up Dome, Half Growing Up Dome !!!
By the way Andy, 33 years of climbing experience right here in this individual poster. Thousands of hard pitches of freeclimbing and many many grade V and Grade VI walls. I still climb hard. Not as hard as I used to but I pull reasonably hard for my age. And I'm only one voice in this thing. How old are you?
Ed & Mighty Hiker, sweet posts dudes!! Damn U gies R smaarrt!!
cintune, your post a ways back with all the bold print was feckin' hilarious!
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Apr 17, 2008 - 09:22am PT
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Survival, you forgot to mention...(locker style edit)
911-terrorists-911-terrorists-911-terrorists-911-terrorists...
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SteveW
Trad climber
State of confusion
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Apr 17, 2008 - 09:24am PT
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Ed and MH, you both really wrote some sweet
words. I'm glad I'm part of this community,
and being able to rub shoulders with you guys
is a privilege.
Thanks.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Apr 17, 2008 - 09:26am PT
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This is still going strong...Im in Panama and then on to Costa Rica...update me...what up with Rock & Ice
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Apr 17, 2008 - 09:27am PT
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Its ironic that in his denigration of our camp fire Andrew has probably single handedly propelled this irrelevant thread to 1750.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 17, 2008 - 09:39am PT
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Bob,
No....you have to go back and read it all...HAA :)
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Apr 17, 2008 - 09:47am PT
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Andrew I am really glad you still think your self so correct and significant. Hubris is a wonderful delusion. It is one of the reasons R&I has lost so many readers. Since we know you think ST is so irrelevant you should just keep on grinding out endless drivel. Perhaps you guys should print up yet another (ad nauseum) crash pad review or a scintillating expose on all the worlds most significant 'sit starts'.
After all isn't that what the market/advertisers believe that climbing is all about.
17 posts on your R&I blog compared to 1500+ on ST. Exactly who is irrelevant?
Open mouth insert foot (even with poo on your shoe).
One of the beautiful things about ST is that even you would still be invited to join our virtual camp fire.
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jstan
climber
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Apr 17, 2008 - 10:21am PT
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That's it guys. We all owe Andrew big time. A debt that dwarfs everything else. Read your posts above.
We now realize
there is an
"us".
That was the larger problem.
We didn't know this.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 17, 2008 - 10:23am PT
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Doug Robinson
John Bachar
Kevin Worrell (sp?)
Sean Jones
Tom Higgins
Scott Cosgrove
Ken Yager
Bob D'Antonio
Werner Braun
Roy McClenahan
John Long
Peter Mayfield
Kurt Smith
Steve Wunsch?
Hank Caylor
John Middendorf
Russ Walling
These are a few of the unreal people that have participated in this discussion. Very sorry to all of you that I left out. You're important to me too.
Andrew, I'd say we're doing fine. Come, sit with us at the fire and have a beer........
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ct
climber
CO
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Apr 17, 2008 - 10:39am PT
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For the purpose of context, some 'gems' from Andrew Bisharat's 'Tuesday Night Bouldering' column in the very same Growing Up issue of R&I. I didn't have the intestinal fortitude to type it out in full.
"Dude, your chest hair looks like the Bat Signal." "What?" I said. "Does not." No! It can't be. I'm not Batman. Theres no way.
"I'd much rather be Batso," I said, beginning to think more clearly. Yes. That's right. you meant to say Batso. Batso man! Warren Harding! First ascent of the Nose, drank a bottle of red wine every day, ran around with hot women and drove fast cars, and didn't give a damn about anything." These were a few details I know about Warren Harding, and to me, the only ones that really mattered.
"Of course a cat needs help getting out of a tree like Dean Potter needs help putting his foot in his mouth..."
Bisharat then launches into an extended rant about gumbys, highlighting his heroic role in a 'resuce' at Rifle. He writes:
"I reached up into my shirt and touched my chest hair - either my mark of Cain or my cross to bear; its nature was still unclear. Batso would never miss a party like this, I realized."
"The realization struck me hard. This was my calling. My heart momentarily jumped into my throat and a shock of electricity ran through my nuts. I am Batso!" "I am Batso!" I screamed, accelerating forward."
"It is an incredible thing to realize your true identity and just how deeply rooted climbing is in the absurd."
What a load of drivel. Obviously, taking anthing he writes seriously is a stretch of credibility. Just because this guy convinced some sap to pay him for the crap he writes doesn't mean that he has anything useful to say.
Most amazing to me is that R&I couldn't include a few more amazing photos of Growing Up, a topo, or more well-crafted words about the beautiful face because they had to dedicate 3 full pages to this guy's steaming pile?? No big surprise R&I continues to stink, despite trying to cop from the Alpinist style.
Conversely, if you thought Bisharat's writing above was brilliant and captivating, the entire article is here:
http://www.rockandice.com/inthemag.php?id=21&type=tnb
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 17, 2008 - 11:17am PT
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Brothers and Sisters of the Typefest,
I have a confession:
It was me.
I didn't mean to.
Honest.
It must have been on the summit,
weighted down by the courage
I was carrying in my rucksack,
That long, long rap rope.
I was too busy looking
for the way down
'cuz even doing it wrong
requires some skill
and placing your anchors
in the right spot.
It's what the Buddhists call
"Right Application of Force."
And I listen as hard to their wisdom
as I do to yours, my brothers.
Anyway, distracted by my "Right Attention"
 another pretty good idea --
that kept me
that day
from tumbling down the South Face,
I stepped in it.
Now that we're all here, however,
Crowded like the virtual ghost
of jstan's Gunks Summit
into this, admittedly somewhat airless room
where paradoxically freshets of cool breeze keep erupting --
I motice that many, many of my august compatriots
Have also come forward to, uh, "aire" their soles.
Really, you are too kind
to step forward
"best foot" as it were --
and make a brother feel
a bit less like the Lone Ranger.
Especially since some of those tainted shoes
have been stashed so long in the closet.
In all humility I thank you.
(My arrogance, it hardly needs saying,
still lurks,
biding its time
to pounce again.
It's fair. Damn sure real.)
To echo another of my favorite lines here
you have, my brothers, spoken so many great lines
that I lose count --
Carry On!
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 17, 2008 - 11:18am PT
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[Finding it hard to not comment...]
Perhaps Andrew did have an interesting point. And maybe he'd thought about
it and matured his idea after reading different internet forums. However, he
chose the wrong thread to use as a target for his epiphany.
Starting his eBeltch with 1,400 posts' worth of inflammatory and ungrammatical
climbing writing, he essentially dis'ed everybody who posted to *this* topic,
and completely missed the importance of this thread.
Yes, this thread is important, and not just because of the number of posts.
Real ideas and emotions about climbing have been brought to the discussion,
and we've spring-boarded off those ideas into new discussions.
I'm amazed that this thread has had no drift, something that seems to end
other "serious" threads--they drift off with two or three folks duking it out.
Well, no drift here, until Andrew shows up.
Andrew certainly does not understand the hand that feeds him. People who
buy his magazine read the articles printed therein. It sparks them with
ideas, and hopefully motivates them. Reading his mag, they are doing just
what Andrew is throwing stones at. "We are perpetually distancing ourselves
from reality through technology." And that does include reading magazines.
--
PS. Doug, that was awesome.
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