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bmacd
Mountain climber
100% Canadian
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We speak of the "murder of the impossible" and of the death of fair means, but those are abstract concepts. What of the death of Egger and the circumstances surrounding it? If Maestri's other claims regarding the 1959 climb are false, why would he be telling the truth about what happened to Egger? There is evidence that they did not agree about climbing strategy (Egger favored single alpine push, Maestri wanted to fix more rope). There is evidence that Maestri has a very volatile temper. Clearly, Egger fell from the mountain, that is true. But when a real man falls out of a cartoon, what are we supposed to believe?
Oh wow, so you are saying Maestri may have killed Egger ?
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Snorky
Trad climber
Carbondale, CO
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I don't know Jim
Egger's story will never be told. Don't ya think he would chime in here in this forum if he could? Do you think he would corroborate Maestri's story?
It's sad. A Google search for Toni Egger pretty much just turns up this Cerro Torre stuff. Very very little info about his hard face climbs in the Andes for example. All of his accomplishments have been overshadowed by his participation in what has become the biggest ever blemish in the ethics of climbing mountains.
Maestri went on to be alternately celebrated and vilified, but with a comfortable life. Egger, meanwhile, was churned up by a glacier, along with his story. He was unable to say what happened, let alone goodbye to his loved ones, and then had his name represented by an ongoing lie perpetuated by the very guy who survived and profited from Egger's difficult and ultimately fatal efforts, and meanwhile his own legitimate feats fall into obscurity despite his famous name. I'd be rolling over.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Donini
Judged by his own standards I think the conclusion would have been clear - assassination. As I see it though, our responsibility is to judge him by our own standards.
The thread has drifted away from it's main theme - the chopping of the bolts. Is it intended?
The cases should be discussed separately - 1. the chopping, 2. the bolting, 3. the summiting 1959. It is three different cases not a single soup.
Snorky
You have got a speculative mind. Let Egger go.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Marlow, there is a relationship to the main theme. A lot of people here are using the historical argument for preservation of the CR. My argument is that since Maestri lied about the 1959 route, the CR was put up with arrogance and cynicism and has no credible place in climbing history. Regarding chopping the route, I have always felt that was a local matter that should be handled by the Argentinians.
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Snorky
Trad climber
Carbondale, CO
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Oh wow, so you are saying Maestri may have killed Egger ?
No evidence for that. But the whole thing is super sketch. Heated tempers often lead to hasty mistakes. Communication errors, rope mismanagement, fistfights. The point he is: He didn't climb it, someone died, he lied. It's good TV.
Three years ago I climbed a new route on CT that I can't really describe and have no photos of and my partner and I fought like devils. If you don't believe me I will rebolt the Compressor Route to prove it.
I'm letting go of Egger now. R.I.P.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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There's nothing particularly "heroic" about taking out the trash, nor does the chore require "saviours" to accomplish it.
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Snorky
Trad climber
Carbondale, CO
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Contra: The Compressor Route was the only way I was ever going to get up Cerro Torre (the access for regular climbers argument)
Pro: The bolt ladders caused tunnel vision that prevented a generation of climbers from discovering a reasonable alternative using minimal bolts. (The bolts stole the future argument)
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Healyje
As far as I have seen "the atrocity", "the rape" and comparing the chopping to tearing down "the Berlin wall" were the words of the choppers and used to jusify their deed. This argument can be seen as extremely arrogant, more arrogant than anything I have heard from Maestri (he did not claim to have bolted to get nearer to some higher almost "religious" goal).
While I can see no ethical thinking at all going on during Maestri's bolting, I think the ethical thinking of K&K is superficial and like Maestri there is an aggressive component in their thinking and their actions.
When it comes to the local consensus argument both Maestri and K&K have failed.
In my view both Maestri and K&K have failed and they should be forgiven.
The important question is the future of bolting and chopping.
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monaco
climber
marseille (FR) - parma (IT)
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@ Snorky
I would suggest you to re-read my posts.
I'd never assert that Maestri didn't lie about the ascent of 1959.
I'd never state that the compressor route is what I consider the correct way of mountaineering.
I'd never approved the compressor route...neither the five bolts and belays used by KKK...this is not my alpinism
I asked more respect for an old man, that made great errors...climbing and maybe human errors, that nevertheless climbed during his youth in an impressive manner (he was not only a bolt-climber but also one of the stronger free and solo climber of his time) and that now is old.
I think that everyone of us can judge strictly Maestri's action on Cerro Torre...nevertheless I think that state ''Maestri insanity'' is at least not polite, not class and definetly irrespectful.
please remember that alpinism is a mere game...I think that such sharp judgement (insanity!!??) should be reserved for other more important things
I stated more than one time that I would agree the bolt chopping 30/40 years ago...not now.
doing this now, without a large consensus, is, in my opinion, not correct.
I tried to explain the (probable) cultural differences between the ''old'' and the ''new'' world that make so different the ''feeling'' of what is historical (also bad things...also for people like me that NEVER approved the compressor route and this kind of alpinism)
I would like to see the same rules applied all around the world...cerro chopped? let's chop all the bolt ladders.
there are not ''unavoidable'' bolts that are necessary to connect crack systems...this is the best example of murdering of impossible.
bold ethics means to be capable of renoncing...are we ready?
why no one of you (american, canadian, european, italian) gave me an aswer to my question on 1/10/100 bolts and the importance of real ''fair means''?
are we flirting with our ambitions/egos adapting the rules of the games to our present capability?
cheers,
matteo.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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I would have more respect for Maestri if he admitted his past errors instead of arrogantly defending his claims. I understand being old, I'm 68, but I don't think that should lead to unqualified forgiveness.
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Snorky
Trad climber
Carbondale, CO
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Correct me if I'm wrong Marlow, but I believe Monaco is invoking the "history" argument, the the "local consensus" argument", and the "respect old people" argument.
Is the history argument connected to the respect old people argument? That is, if CR had been chopped 30 years ago, when Maestri was not old, would it have been OK to disrespect him by chopping the bolts at that time? Or would it have been OK because they weren't historic yet?
There's a lot of insanity in alpinism. It's not a game at all. There is no score. People die. People don't risk death for bowling, darts, and cards. You don't get better at it when you drink beer, so it's simply not a game.
Agree. Let's chop all the bolt ladders. At least in roadless areas.
What's your 1/10/100 bolts question? Why have an all-or-nothing approach? Even Preuss pounded in a few pitons when it was practical. Use minimal bolts on the most natural lines. If better passage is found nearby, remove the old bolts at once.
"are we flirting with our ambitions/egos adapting the rules of the games to our present capability?" Yes. I strive to do better.
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monaco
climber
marseille (FR) - parma (IT)
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@ donini
he is 80 year old...do you think that the worse parts of our personality usually get better with age?
If I look to my father, my grand-father...and to myself...sadly I say ''no''...
it is late...late for him to ''admit'' (note...I'm arguing)
and also late for bolt chopping
why don't we simply do better than bad things instead of impose our ideas?
it is strange for me to state that...I always fight with a lot of passion and, now I think, eccesive effort against any kind of bolting...
I'm reflecting...and I think that ''wars'' are never useful...it is important to teach ''culture''.
imposing actions does not produce culture...only focalizes people on their own ''truth''.
producing culture (it is my real work...beyond alpinism) is a slow and tiring process, but I am more and more convinced that is the only way to spread a better style of alpinism.
messner climbed fantastic routes and produce culture...did not start real bolt-wars.
I think this is the way to follow.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Marlow, it's a simple proposition - removing the bolts restores respect for what CT was and is. Everything else is as strange a rationalization as Maestri's in 1970. That pretty well sums up the arguments for removing them, On the other hand there are a half dozen of arguments for why they should stay - commercialization, history, locals, etc. and all depend on and result in the blight remaining in place.
monaco: it is late...late for him to ''admit'' (note...I'm arguing)
and also late for bolt chopping
It's never too late for either - to suggest or claim Maestri couldn't come clean at this point says it all...
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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In many ways I feel sorry for Cesare. He got himself into a corner from which he could not extricate himself and, given human nature, probably now believes his story to be true.
All of us, being human, are far from perfect. Forgiveness is probably the best course, especially for our own well being.
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monaco
climber
marseille (FR) - parma (IT)
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@ snorky
the age of Maetri and the ''age'' of compressor route are not correlated.
I said ''Maestri is old, climbing is a game...so please use world that are less strong than insanity''
concerning the age of compressor route I always said that chopping the route 30/40 year ago would be an ethical reaction to a (strongly) disputable action...
...chopping the route now is removing something that, in italy we say ''nel bene e nel male'' (literally ''during good and bads times''...but the real meaning is ''independently of our will''), is part of the climbing history (we can agree that is a sad page of this history).
I hope that I've been more clear :)
concerning alpinism as a game...you can say that is a dangerous game, but it is a useless activity...it is still a game, a game for (not totally sane ;-))) ) adult people.
if you carefully read the article of messner you can see that also ONE bolt ''kills the dragon''.
we are not forced to climb a wall...we must learn to renonce.
as in all the games (useless activities) the rules are the most important things.
and rules must be clear and not ''avoidable''.
who is that decide the ''acceptable amount of bolts''? the players during the game...too easy!!!!
the nature (rock conformation) must be the only one to decide for us...cracks, pockets means protections...slab means climb or u-turn.
this was the main ethics in Dolomiti after the questionable ''direttisima era''. simple, clear and bold.
nevertheless people had not destroied the old directissimas...
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Monaco
You say: "I'm reflecting...and I think that ''wars'' are never useful...it is important to teach ''culture''. Imposing actions do not produce culture...only focalize people on their own ''truth''."
My comment: Polarization is the highest step of the conflict ladder and seldom a good thing. I agree. But some young guys love to fight and some old men love that in them.
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uli__
climber
Milan, Italy
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@house of cards
"There are countless routes like the Compressor in the Dolomites, with bolt ladders from bottom to top, so it is not surprising that Italians dont find the Compressor route offensive."
No, there are countless routes with bolt ladder sections, I don't know any that is from bottom to top, the main difference between Italian bolt ladders and american ones is that the pressure pins of the '50-'60 are still there: they have not been systematically replaced by modern expansion bolts as, I beleive, on the nose and many other. The original expansion pins are mostly (and precariously) still there
My point was that it is unfortunate at best that Conti and Salvaterra back pedaled. It does not make them look very good.
My point is that is unfortunate at best that MOST of instigators (including Garibotti) DID use LIGHT and EASY hardware to DRILL rock and put EXPANSION BOLTS on CT or elsewere doesn't matter much.
It is also unfortunate that those insitgators, for years, did just only speak and never act, waiting for kids to do the dirty work for them
this is, to be kind, hypocrisy of the worst kind
@snorky
sorry there is a lower level of moronicity under which I don't even bother to answer
@coz
hat down
PS1 The sad thing in this whole story is to be (mistakenly) consiederd an italian nationalist, a defensor of Maestri's honorability, a believer of every word in his account of '59, defensor of drills and aid climbing, and nothinglessthan and history rewriter, only because
 I do not call Maestri guilt of lying upon, at best, circumstantial evidence
I do not like THE WAY in which the bolting on compressor route has been "refactored"
I do have more than one bit in my brain and can, believe it or not, conceive to both diskile the bolting by Maestri and the unbolting by the kids
PS2 foradaiball, being banned from here, sent me an email with the following text that he prays me to post untranslated, and so I do
1. la salita della torre egger di alcune settimane fa' sembrava impossibile: fatta, velocemente e tranquillamente, e non so se sono i migliori ghiacciatori al mondo quelli, non mi pare
2. siete sicuri che quella parete non era veramente uno scivolo di neve ghiacciata, quando c'era su Maestri ?
3. se lo era, non c'era bisogno di chiodare nel granito per assicurare; ovvio non era cosa da tutti, ma da gente forte e fuori di testa. Quelli che contestano questa salita, sono i migliori al mondo di oggi o della loro epoca ? No ? Bene, Maestri su roccia ed Egger su ghiaccio lo erano, e in quelle condizioni potevano farcela, loro, voi sicuramente no
4. chi può credere, che tutte queste illazioni e contestazioni non siano fatte per invidia/rabbia/vendetta nei confronti di Maestri ? L'unico che sprezzante, avanzava come un bulldozer, che ci ha sempre messo la faccia e non si è mai tirato indietro davanti a niente. Non poteva certo essere simpatico alla concorrenza. Che contro di lui ha sempre perso. Quelli che dicono che di sicuro Maestri non è salito, sono solo dei poveri nerds, dei perdenti, dei senza palle, che non sanno riconoscere la forza di chi li ha battuti. Salendo il Cerro Torre anni ed anni prima, umiliandoli e polverizzandoli.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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I seem to remember an American climber who did a lot of bolting in Yosemite.
-He took 58 days to force a route up El Capitan
-He drilled a 200+ foot bolt ladder on blank rock to make a first ascent on the Leaning Tower
-He tried to bolt his way up the south face of Half Dome, but had to be rescued
-He drilled 300+ bolts to put up a first ascent on El Capitan
He was considered a living legend and his death was mourned by the entire climbing community.
My point is that you might be upset at Maestri because you feel he lied about his 1959 ascent of Cerro Torre, but even we Americans have climbers who have done a lot of what some might consider forced lines that were overbolted. However, they were ultimately accepted and welcomed into our climbing community.
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