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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Richard...adventure in the Gunks die many years ago.
Falling on fixed peice of gear (piton, bolt or nut) just didn't start 10 years ago. We just weren't smart enough to hang and figure the move out from that fixed piece. Just because you, joe or I have put our balls on the chopping block...doesn't mean others have too.
You climb in one of the populated areas in the country. Come visit me out hear in NM...climbers are few and the rocks are many. I'll take you to a desert tower or a weekday in the Black or we can go to Questa Dome or the Sandias and maybe...just maybe we will see a handful of other climbers.
I'm just over this sport climbing bashing. It's fun, it safe and you get to do a sh#t load of routes...how horrible! A lot of the routes have beautiful movement and it's quite exicting to excute the moves in a flowing manner!
Richard...the US population has increase by 100 million people since the late 60's...it only makes sense that the climbing population would grow too.
Hope all is well with you and the family and see you in NM this summer.
Later, Bob
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Bob, thanks for the invitation. I'll have to see what can be arranged...
It occurs to me that perhaps our differences on this issue, which are not actually very substantial, might be entirely an artifact of the population densities of our environments.
New York had 402 people per square mile in 2000, New Mexico had 15.
Cheers,
Richard
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jstan
climber
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Each area and for that matter each group of people is different so it is hard to generalize. But it can be useful to look at basic trends, In the early 70’s I published a look at governmental recreation statistics along with census data. At the time it appeared US population would stabilize somewhere just above 200 million, so it seemed the growth in usage we were seeing would not continue indefinitely. As we all know we are now at 300 million and counting. Increasing population density in climbing areas would logically be expected to cause a Darwinian selection for those who also seek a group social environment in their climbing, almost by necessity. Indeed we were even then seeing substantial increases in the number of top roping events wherein ten or twelve people would spend half a day or more on the first pitch of a few selected climbs. This came before the rise of climbing gyms and one may ask if this desire to have climbing also be a group social experience may ultimately have been what made the gyms financially viable. However the chicken/egg question is answered, the fact remains the gyms are now acting to feed significant numbers of people into the outdoors who have a narrowly conditioned prior experience. Until the census data begins to stabilize we may expect everyone’s preferred form of climbing will in turn be swamped by the realities. In time, present day sport climbers will, in their own turn, complain that new people don’t seek what they sought and are impinging upon it. Economic trends of course will also play a role in determining what fraction of the increasing population can afford to spend a day climbing. How this will play out can only be guessed at, but right now it at least appears the economy is going to become a larger factor than it is at present. In summary, during times of rapid change those who like what they presently have, will not be entirely happy. However the flip side of that coin is, if we do not now find a way to civilize this process, all shall fall under that same heel.
With population increasing everywhere the heavily traveled areas may be seen as only further advanced along the curve to be followed by all areas. The climbing environment changes directly as climbers cause it to change. It seems to this observer that only two features of the "old" climbing are escaping change.
1. the concept of a route
As I remember it, Whymper had to find a way to get up the Matterhorn before commercial guides in the area "did" it. There was great argument as to the best way and this then developed into the idea of a "route". Older and/or wiser heads should feel free to correct this observer. This idea, now 141 years old, is still applied to getting to the top of anything even when neighboring "routes" are sometimes only six inches away. If you arbitrarily try to make the route idea still make sense by insisting no two routes be closer than six feet apart, you see the concept makes very inefficient use of the square footage of rock we have available in many areas. Only based upon efficiency, we need to find an alternative to this quite outdated concept.
2. the quantification of difficulty
As has been well pointed out many times over the past 30 years, true difficulty varies greatly depending upon the practices and tools a person uses in their climbing. Sufficiently widely that a thinking person would merely have ceased to believe difficulty merits being quantified at all. Now if we continue to accord such status to difficulty while at the same time we exalt the social element in climbing, what may we infer? If it is a competitive social milieu then we should have races up two equivalent routes in all areas, not just at public competitions, and the winner’s chalk bag should be upended on their heads so they will be marked as winner for the day at least. Such would have the salutary effect of making victory the mixed experience beating your best friends must be. On the other hand suppose it is not a competitive but is a supportive experience. After ten successive people thrutch successfully or unsuccessfully on a climb, all receiving mad applause, what is one to do with that? Is it self -esteem we are seeking? If so, is this the most effective way to gain it?
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Mimi
climber
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Bob, I have to take issue with your comments above about hangdogging. It wasn't stupidity that made people climb boldly and in excellent style. It was pride born of tradition, pure and simple. Somewhere along the way, that got eclipsed by something else for you.
You know you're the climber you are because of your stupid past on all those stupid routes with your stupid pals hanging your stupid asses out in order to get up some stupid route only to go down and do something a little less stupid for awhile.
Cheers and have a good night,
Mimi
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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If you toprope, fall, lower to the ground, and try again, you are still hangdogging.
If you lead, fall, lower to the ground, and try again, you are still hangdogging.
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Mimi
climber
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Once a dog, always a dog. Many people like dogs or doggie style.
To quote Wally Berg: "Live like a dog and you will become a dog."
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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"If you toprope, fall, lower to the ground, and try again, you are still hangdogging.
If you lead, fall, lower to the ground, and try again, you are still hangdogging"
That's a reality distortion of fairly 'Rovian' proportions you've got going there. Neither of those comments is true and yes, Virgina, there are R and X rated top rope routes depending on how you view ground, trees, and cars approaching at high velocities from peculiar vectors both out and back again. One was so bad we simply dispensed with it and free soloed over a 15' high by 20'long row of leaves to put up a route called "Leaves of the Failing Faith". It finally went after twenty five flights protected solely by purple microdot back in the days before maxipads.
[ Note: will be out of commission until friday but do want to respond to a couple of these great and thoughtful posts. ]
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Dang, Mimi! How do you REALLY feel about hang-doggers? In my earlier post, I didn't mean so much to denigrate sport climbing. Like Bob and most of the trad climbers on this forum, I sport climb fairly regularly because of the convenience... and it is pretty fun. But I always look at this stuff as practice for the real deal. I would have to say, however, that personally, the sport climbing mindset has detrimentally affected my trad leading. I seem to hang quite a bit more than I use to.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Mimi wrote: Bob, I have to take issue with your comments above about hangdogging. It wasn't stupidity that made people climb boldly and in excellent style. It was pride born of tradition, pure and simple. Somewhere along the way, that got eclipsed by something else for you.
Mimi...there nothing bold when you fall on a fixed piece 20 times and lower to the ground or a ledge 20 times. It called being ...stupid. LOL
What got "eclipsed" for me was fun. Plain and simple. Sport climbing is fun. Do you understand that?
Again...you just don't get it. Climb any fecking way you want...just don't think your way is better. Who is worse...a religious zealot, political zealot or a climbing zealot??
Mimi...and just who are you? I know most of the people on this thread. What is your full name??
John...great points and way to keep an open mind.
Hope your doing well, later, Bob
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Mimi wrote: Once a dog, always a dog. Many people like dogs or doggie style.
To quote Wally Berg: "Live like a dog and you will become a dog."
Just how old are you?? Fifteen maybe sixteen???
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Hey Steve G, nice pics of old gear.
Why exactly are the Eiger biners "infamous"?
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Becuase they were cheap, but crappy--the gates failed to work properly in the out of doors. Well maybe in the parking lot. I had tons of them. The first to go if I was leaving gear behind.
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Mimi
climber
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Bob, I'm at least as old as the number of bolts you've drilled over the years. My name is on my email address. I've been on here long enough, figure it out.
Were you in Indian Creek at the Cottonwoods in 2003 around a fire with Jay Smith, Martin Boysen, Rab Carrington and others? You invited us to visit in Taos. Perhaps that was the tequila talking. I guess my invite is shot now. Damn.
I do get it regarding sport climbing. Of course sport climbing is fun. It's a de-stressed environment. It's only when you call old guard folk and old ways dumb, and pretend to be more highly evolved, that gets you into trouble. You're willing to croak that adventure climbing is dead in the Gunks and elsewhere so you seem to desire the role of harbinger/agitator. The main problem I have is the attitude exhibited, especially here on a thread devoted to clean climbing and boldness. Tsk tsk.
Cheers,
Margaret deGravelle
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Eiger biners were known for gate failure because they were very flexible. You could stretch them with both hands until the pin contacted the gate. I thought that being named Eiger and all, that it was a good idea to not even lower off of these suckers. They did come in several pretty anodized colors and were a bit cheaper as I recall.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Mimi...It was a joke (the dumb comment) between two friends.
The invite still stands.
Hope all is well, later, Bob
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Well, since this thread was once following the history and development of nuts, maybe we can digress again. In 1971, Chouinard Equipment began selling the extruded Hexcentric nut. Initially, the extrusion was symetrical but it didn't take long to see that two sizes of placements were possible in an asymetrical shape. Tom Frost told me that the people doing the extruding were not happy with the sudden lopsided inspiration! Anyway, about two years later the modern Hexcentric shape replaced the original one. I used to carry a set of old and new Hexes because they overlapped slightly in size options.
The center one shown is the original symetrical shape. The newer Hexcentric also came in a larger size, the #11. Now the big Hex, slung on an over the shoulder length perlon sling had the heft of a medieval weapon and it wasn't long before the overkill in the extrusions became the focus of refinements in design.
Back then, the dealer was your friend and soon Chouinard made templates available to drill out your hexes and save weight. I thought that I had saved mine but no.
Rumors of extra wide (and heavy!) large hexes were abundant and soon the Tubechock was born. These spanned the 4 1/2" to 6" range and quickly replaced endwise Bongs on the wide mans rack. A small bite was removed from the top of the end taper to reduce tip rocking and one of the underside holes was enlarged to allow them to be racked upright. Whenever I climb wide cracks, I can still hear the tubular bells clanking! The bells, the bells, the bells of nostalgia!
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Crimpergirl
Social climber
St. Louis
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Really cool. (And pretty to look at as well). Thanks for the photos.
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thedogfather
climber
Midwest
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I remember some blue girder-like wide nuts I took to Devils Tower. Maybe CMI or something like that. Boy did they make a racket.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Nice rug, Steve.
My tubes do not have the notch on the top radius. This must have been a later improvement.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Thanks Roger, the rug was bought in Turkey and is from Afghanistan before all the disruption there.
The tubechock fillet definitely happened on the second generation. Do you remember hearing a tale of a party on the right side of The Hourglass having several Tubechocks crimped and then spit out when the entire formation shifted slightly while they were on it?
Gogfather, those would be CMI I-beams by the blue color for sure. They never caught on for some reason. Must have been the lack of a pleasing tone......
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