Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
|
|
|
Jul 27, 2011 - 07:44pm PT
|
Irregardless is not a word.
|
|
the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
|
|
|
Jul 27, 2011 - 07:47pm PT
|
Irirregardless of the quality of the natural features I still don't see the point of manufactured (crappy rivets) difficulty.
|
|
Bubba Ho-Tep
climber
Evergreen, CO
|
|
|
Jul 27, 2011 - 07:54pm PT
|
Rudder:
Best case scenario it still qualifies as a manufactured climb as it is all hooking... so the manufacturing is how many hooks between how risky of fixed protection. That's something you make up, not something that is there. I'm sure the FA team knew they couldn't get away with installing a solid bolt every 15' and hook inbetween all the way to the top. They had to manufacture the risk by way of the type of fixed protection they used to make the route have some kind of merit... at least to themselves.
I beg to differ and here's why:
You say it's manufactured because it's all hooking between fixed pro. Other than free climbing it or drilling a hole every few feet, what other possible way was there (or is there) to climb it. They sure as hell didn't manufacture the risk as you suggest, in fact they mitigated it by using bolts and rivits.
Sure, it's a forced line, as is any line up a featureless slab but it's a huge stretch to say it's manufactured - that would make virtually every line on the Apron a manufactured POS also.
Manufactured means, at least to me, that the rock was altered (and I don't mean chipping a few tiny crystals on micro flakes.) Manufactured, to me, is what the PO wall and SOD are - sculptured flakes, drilled hook moves, etc. Rock was altered in order to create the routes and it was done in order to preserve an artificial level of difficulty that would have been lost if not for the trickery involved.
Only when we get the SA report will we know the amount of manufacturing that went into this climb.
|
|
Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
|
|
|
Jul 27, 2011 - 07:56pm PT
|
Melissa and Kate had the Wall-Parasol pic going on, WAAAY before that Trotter interloper up there.
They sure as hell didn't manufacture the risk as you suggest, in fact they mitigated it by using bolts and rivits.
It's kind of the same thing (manufactured risk vs. mitigated). I think the point was, they got to choose at any point when to eliminate the risk, vs that being dictated by the rock and possibly unknown (bottoming seams that look like they'll protect and then don't, etc).
If you like slab hooking, I'm sure it's the cat's ass of a route. If you enjoy aestetic "lines" that follow obvious weaknesses and features, then it probably seems like an exercise in boring and repetitive micro-flake/crystal hooking.
What I find interesting is that some folks take the view that it wasn't repeated because of difficulty....even spouting this view long after the crux pitches had been climbed by multiple parties who failed to summit for whatever reasons (time, water, heat). I think it stood so long without repeats because people don't value it as a line that calls to them. There are plenty of El Cap routes that are arguably harder, and there and plenty that are more dangerous.
But ya'll want drama about shenanigans and semantics. "He wants it, well....he gets it. I don't like it any more than you men"
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
|
Jul 27, 2011 - 07:57pm PT
|
Those of us who have not done the route have little to no grounds for commenting on the quality of the climbing. We do however have an obligation to act honorably to the best of our ability in all aspects of our lives. Most of us struggle with meeting that obligation and some do not even try....
|
|
the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
|
|
|
Jul 27, 2011 - 07:58pm PT
|
Maybe this all started because of a mistaken identity.
CLEARWATER, Fla. (AP) - Wildlife officials said a rhesus monkey known to throw feces when mad is on the loose in Tampa Bay. Authorities have been trying to capture the primate since Tuesday afternoon, but it managed to evade a bucket truck and tranquilizer dart.
Gary Morse with the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission says the adult male is thought to have escaped from an unlicensed source. It was last seen in Clearwater.
The monkey is not considered dangerous.
|
|
Bubba Ho-Tep
climber
Evergreen, CO
|
|
|
Jul 27, 2011 - 08:02pm PT
|
DMT, you are a moron. Sorry you feel left out and are not part of the club that has "shitter knowledge".
Who cares who they were, these were the acts of immature kids who still have not grown up enough to step up to the plate and accept responsibility for their actions.
I'll bet you are one of the folks who rubberneck at car crashes hoping to see the carnage and bodies.
|
|
Prod
Trad climber
|
|
|
Jul 27, 2011 - 08:04pm PT
|
I'll bet you are one of the folks who rubberneck at car crashes hoping to see the carnage and bodies.
The world loves a train wreck.
|
|
Bubba Ho-Tep
climber
Evergreen, CO
|
|
|
Jul 27, 2011 - 08:06pm PT
|
Lol. So bubba, who sh#t the ropes?
DMT
Don't know, dont' care. That's between the shitters and the shitties.
It's obvious you care a lot since this is about the tenth time you have called for their names.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Jul 27, 2011 - 08:08pm PT
|
Back in the mid-80s I was given a tour by locals of a couple of hard slab climbs at Whitehorse. They had me follow them up the slab to a point where I wanted a rope but they didn't see the need. They were kind enough to drop me a line though and bring me up to a bolt that represented the anchor for a couple of their 'routes'.
I'd been climbing for ten years at that point and even had a fairly scary no-hands line to my credit in SoIll. Still I couldn't vaguely perceive the 'line' or route they were pointing out right in front of me. All I saw was a vast expanse of granite that looked like someone took a baking roller to it early on.
In the end, what they pointed out as 'holds' were mere ripples and anomolous crystals in the surface of the slab. I think I made move #1 and couldn't see a damn thing after that whereas those guys made move after move on what they claimed were discrete 'holds' or 'features'. The line was also quite runout from bolt-to-bolt.
From my perspective the entire thing seemed unrepeatable and entirely 'manufactured' with respect to risk. But, hey, that was their deal and game and I wasn't then and aren't now in a position to judge their choice of what to climb. And I suspect similar types lurk about in NC as well. I'd like to see one of you Valley boys tell them to their faces that all their slab lines were 'manufactured' or 'contrived'.
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
|
Jul 27, 2011 - 08:09pm PT
|
Bubba, everyone rubbernecks at car crashes.. only the young and stupid hope to see carnage. those of us who have experienced carnage hope not to see it but we still rubberneck.....
Most on this site are getting on in years but we were all young and stupid at one point in our lives. Many of us were in our twentys when this sh#t happened. very few of us have ever done anything that nasty and mean to our fellow humans...
Yea, we should know who these people are...
|
|
Rudder
Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
|
|
|
Jul 27, 2011 - 08:10pm PT
|
Hey Karl!
These guys are climbing, too:
I think the FAs of WOS strongly intended to and then, in fact, did follow the mechanical ethics of the time. It is the esthetics, style, and other ethics that I always wondered about. Once again the fixed protection question... if you're going to bring up a bolt kit, and 1200 lbs of supplies, you're ensuring the outcome. You can make it more or less spicy to taste, but the outcome is certain. I mean 1200 lbs? How much did Maestri's compressor weigh? ;)
|
|
Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
|
|
|
Jul 27, 2011 - 08:14pm PT
|
What was that .13d route in Rifle described in the guidebook as "the line is not beautiful nor is the climbing much fun, it is merely difficult"?
|
|
Rudder
Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
|
|
|
Jul 27, 2011 - 08:15pm PT
|
Irregardless is not a word.
Well, regardless of whether you are right about that or not, I will use irregardless irregardlessly. lol
|
|
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
|
|
Jul 27, 2011 - 08:18pm PT
|
Bwah-ha-ha-ha!! Who knows who the Sh|tters are? Are you a member of Club Sh|tter? Many claim to be members, but who are the *real* members?
Irregardless [sic] of this, they did manufacture artificial difficulty on Wings of Steel, by placing Z-Mac rivets instead of stronger machine bolts. I believe this pre-dated the current use of Rawl 1/4" buttonheads, did it knott?
Nowadays, consensus is, "if you have to drill a hole, you might as well put a rivet in it." And Rawl 1/4" buttonheads, which are rather stronger than either of the above, are the usual rivet.
When WoS was put up, the FA-ists chose to place Z-Macs. "We never intended our rivets to hold falls." This was their choice. Similarly, Greg Child and Peter Mayfield chose to drill bathook holes on Aurora, rather than put rivets in them. Both of these climbs were put up about the same time.
I don't recall hearing much if any criticism of this practice on Aurora. Of course, Greg and Peter were "cool kids".
I disagree with the use of Z-Macs on WoS. When we replaced the bolts and rivets on the first two pitches, Tom and I asked Mark and Richard what they wanted, and they insisted on Z-Macs, so that's what we used.
I disagree with the use of Z-Macs, but I also "get" why they did it. It was the custom of the time.
Peter Mayfield aka Maysho - can you please comment?
Dingus, maybe we need to set a bounty on the Sh|tters' identity?
|
|
Rudder
Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
|
|
|
Jul 27, 2011 - 08:18pm PT
|
Irirregardless of the quality of the natural features I still don't see the point of manufactured (crappy rivets) difficulty.
Good use of irregardless (Mark? ;)) and I agree. :)
|
|
Slakkey
Big Wall climber
From Back to Big Wall Baby
|
|
|
Jul 27, 2011 - 08:23pm PT
|
The world loves a train wreck.
And a good sh#t fight too
|
|
Bubba Ho-Tep
climber
Evergreen, CO
|
|
|
Jul 27, 2011 - 08:29pm PT
|
Update your spreadsheet son, its 11 now... so who sh#t the ropes?
DMT
It was really Mark and Richard but don't tell anyone else. It's going to come out in Pete's book.
|
|
Rudder
Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
|
|
|
Jul 27, 2011 - 08:32pm PT
|
Manufactured means, at least to me, that the rock was altered (and I don't mean chipping a few tiny crystals on micro flakes.) Manufactured, to me, is what the PO wall and SOD are - sculptured flakes, drilled hook moves, etc. Rock was altered in order to create the routes and it was done in order to preserve an artificial level of difficulty that would have been lost if not for the trickery involved.
Correct. I agree. Above, though, I was suggesting that a sustained route of nothing but hooking =might= be monotonous, tedious, unesthetic, =maybe= even lacking in merit being on the same wall as a route like the Salathe which is twice as tall and went up with 13 bolts originally... that therefore the FAists arranged the fixed protection to make the route dangerous or have some kind of merit... in that way making it manufactured danger, a manufactured route... whereby the protection was not merely put up to protect the great climbing. Now if they scoped out the line and saw they could hook to thin seams and put tiny gear in the seams between hooking... well then... ;)... now you're talking dicey and huge respect no matter race, sex, or religion. And, again, no manufacturing of the protection difficulty to =maybe= mask a forced route. Just a thought from another armchair cowboy. :)
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!