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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Apr 16, 2008 - 06:49pm PT
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"I'm wondering, how many of you have not done a route simply because of the style in which it was created? I mean, flat-out not even stepped on the stone. Have you done this once, or is it your personal ethic to never do routes that weren't put up in an acceptable style?"
That is the ONLY reason I never went and repeated any Skinner routes. Had nothing to do with the ratings . . .
Seriously, can't say that I have ever parsed my route choices by that criteria. I might get on a route if the route is attractive, and within my abilities, and I have time, and a partner, and enough sun, and etc etc. The style of the FA is not relevant to me, unless the FA was forced (could either be on rap OR on lead/hooks) and the bolt placements do not coincide with natural clipping stances.
And yeah, that R&I guy dissed this thread and missed the point, no doubt. Kids these days don't like stuff that's "thinky" and "wordy," and this thread is both!
edit to add: forget about the R&I article, or risk bloating this thread beyond comprehension. Even at 1,400 it's manageable (!), although it's about due for a summary.
Bill
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Apr 16, 2008 - 07:09pm PT
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I didn't do Bachar-Yerian because of the style. If that Bachar guy had rap bolted and put in shorter runouts, I'd have definitely got on it. Looks like the climbing is really good :-)
On a more serious note, the most impressive thing about this whole almost 1500 post thread is how civil it has been, how little trolling there's been, and how good the discussion has been. Even if I haven't agreed with everyone, I think I still respect everyone, and that's sometimes the best outcome you can hope for.
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Apr 16, 2008 - 07:30pm PT
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Well, in the same article of Rock and Ice that had Doug's article, the R&I gear guru spent several paragraphs ranting about why it's perfectly okay to get lowered through fixed anchors while sport climbing, and that people shouldn't give a sh#t about it and anyone who thinks it's a problem is kind of an idiot and bla bla bla.
It's not the first time someone there's gotten self-righteous or punkassed.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Apr 16, 2008 - 07:39pm PT
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"paid some attention to the ongoing thread about the South Face of Half Dome on the Supertopo forum, but not much. Reading 1,400 posts' worth of inflammatory and ungrammatical climbing writing is a lot to ask of any person, even me, who technically has to do just that for a living."
Got balls, Andrew? Jesus Christ.
If you don't know what I'm talking about--and most people never do--
Self-deprecate much?
.... Their opinions were expressed through all of the dialects of the modern, impersonal and misspelled language of today's Internet.
I'm no big deal climber here, but I am a writer and editor, and I really didn't notice a whole lot of misspellings. A few, but no big deal for the forum format. Poor Andrew, though, no patience for a few typos, but plenty of hubris to rub one out over the hot issue du jour.
Normally, I don't think it's worth taking what people write on the Web seriously--
pfffffft.
but the sheer number of people who have weighed in on this issue
Not to mention their caliber? Good God. Hubris, thy name is Bisharat.
makes it a relevant one to discuss in this week's eBlast.
The millions of fans of "eBlast" would expect no less, certainly.
Sorry, but this one is not going to be funny.
On the contrary.
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jstan
climber
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Apr 16, 2008 - 07:41pm PT
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The following is a verbatim copy of bluering's link.
"GROW UP
THE TNB EBLAST ROUND 56
04.15.08
I've paid some attention to the ongoing thread about the South Face of Half Dome on the Supertopo forum, but not much. Reading 1,400 posts' worth of inflammatory and ungrammatical climbing writing is a lot to ask of any person, even me, who technically has to do just that for a living.
If you don't know what I'm talking about--and most people never do--here's the basic gist: A long, great-looking route, first featured in an exclusive Rock and Ice article, was established partly on lead with some rap bolting last year. Due to the history of the face, this caused some people to become upset. Their opinions were expressed through all of the dialects of the modern, impersonal and misspelled language of today's Internet.
Normally, I don't think it's worth taking what people write on the Web seriously--but the sheer number of people who have weighed in on this issue makes it a relevant one to discuss in this week's eBlast. Sorry, but this one is not going to be funny.
Of course, I have an opinion--that it frustrates me when old-school climbers lose their minds any time anyone climbs in a different style than they did a hundred years ago--but I don't think that my opinion is important enough to post anonymously in a forum.
What's interesting to me isn't this route or its ethical and stylistic issues. This type of debate has been around since the day man decided to go up something with anything other than his loincloth to cover up the him-hang. What is interesting, however, is how the new medium has become influential to the dialogue.
The Internet has turned climbing into an abstract concept. Any time you remove yourself from the reality of a situation, and then try to explain it using cookie-cutter dogma and principles that were picked up from reading enough forum posts, I believe that the soul becomes denigrated.
How many people on the Internet spray about the importance of one climbing style while putting the other one down, which they refuse to even try because it goes against their "ethics"?
The Internet is a place that climbers use to create a cult of personalities, or something like that. For example, if you like the idea of identifying yourself as "old school" and "traditional," you don't have to actually do any old school, traditional climbing--you just have to post enough good catch phrases: bash sport climbers, glorify the 5.9s of 20 years ago, and so on. You know the drill. The reason the Half Dome South Face forum is over 1,400 posts long has NOTHING to do with South Face and everything to do with self-creating opportunities it presents all the gumbies who get to turn themselves into the climbers they've always wanted to be--fearless, hardcore, moralist, old school, new school, whatever.
The point is, and this is what really bothers me, is how sanitized our lives have become. We are perpetually distancing ourselves from reality through technology. I don't care about the Supertopo thread, but it does make me sad. It's proof of how packaged up, or reduced, our sport becomes when you have 1,400 posts' worth of probably decent climbers who are preoccupied with sitting at home and debating abstract concepts, and pretending that they actually abide by the ethics they espouse, instead discovering and enjoying the experience of climbing with open minds.
This sanitization of reality is all around us, too. "Operation Freedom" somehow makes it sound like something other than mass murder, and throwing around terms like "rap bolting" (or whatever) on Supertopo makes it sound like something akin to mass murder! The Internet allows us to take a step back from what is really going on. Would we still be in Iraq if each one of us had to go shoot bullets at people, and would we still be complaining about this one route on Half Dome if we were putting up our own routes using our own preferred style of climbing? Or, better yet, climbing the route in question and enjoying a over a thousand feet of perfect granite?
Of course, it's easier to put Growing Up down than actually go up the route ... or grow up, in general. "
End of quote
I believe this text was placed on the internet by its author. The author apparently is unaware of the importance of including all opinions in an important discussion such as this. So we have taken the step of including it verbatim.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Apr 16, 2008 - 07:45pm PT
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Obvious Pinko.....
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bler
Boulder climber
Alamo, CA
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Apr 16, 2008 - 07:51pm PT
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haha my favorite quote :
"Of course, it's easier to put Growing Up down than actually go up the route ... or grow up, in general. "
of cource its easier to sit back and spew out to people who are NOT involved with the conversation rather then growing up and joining the conversation at hand to make your point.
ok, ok.. haha I'll stop now, its just too easy to rip into this article.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Apr 16, 2008 - 07:52pm PT
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Well, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I think Bisharat is right on in his opinion of this awesome and clearly very important thread. I'll also go so far as to suggest that some of you aren't really getting what he has to say. I'm going to distill it down to a couple lines I think are the most relevant:
"What's interesting to me isn't this route or its ethical and stylistic issues... What is interesting, however, is how the new medium has become influential to the dialogue.
The Internet has turned climbing into an abstract concept.
We are perpetually distancing ourselves from reality through technology."
He's not even talking about the route. And I think he makes a very legitimate point.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Apr 16, 2008 - 07:58pm PT
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A legitimate point, but hardly an original or even very interesting one. Lame is what it is.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Apr 16, 2008 - 08:04pm PT
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Well, for a lame point it sure pricked some egos on here!
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Apr 16, 2008 - 08:06pm PT
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I think thats complete and utter bs. I feal more connected to climbing than ever, because I'm in touch with so many more climbers than I ever was when I started climbing.
If all I did was read this stuff and live vicareously, then it would be bunk, but I'm out climbing a few times a week.
I think the folks that don't get it are just too young to have much of a perspective on life, people, personal interactions, and climbing.
For those of us who have actually thought about this issue vs. just shooting barbs at others, it has been a great thread.
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bler
Boulder climber
Alamo, CA
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Apr 16, 2008 - 08:08pm PT
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"new medium"
ughh, I've been using the Internet since 90' and its hardly a new medium... or is the point that this 'new medium' has never been applied to discussions in climbing, try reading rec.climbing this medium has been around a looong time and applied to many different sports, hobbies and professions.
there may be a valid point in that it is difficult to have a discussion stay on topic or even remain on point in these forums, but with all the different styles, ethics and beliefs without having a mediator it is just the way it is..
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jstan
climber
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Apr 16, 2008 - 08:20pm PT
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Help me out here. If a person refuses to accept internet technology because it isolates one from reality, would that person not also have similar strong feelings against rap bolting? I can't quite remember but I have the recollection running out a hundred feet can involve quite a close connection with reality. What am I missing?
Perhaps I just don't know the vernacular. "Rap" means the climber is on a top rope or rappel, right? And a bolt is one of those things you modify the rock by drilling a hole into it, right?
Up to now I have not said much one way or the other about "style" issues and I am not saying anything here either. I just can't make any sense out of the behavior behind this contribution.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 16, 2008 - 08:35pm PT
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pfffffft.
Couldn't have said it better. Perfect.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 16, 2008 - 09:31pm PT
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Who cares what some guy said in a magazine.
He said it to make himself look good.
Anybody can do the same.
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SteveW
Trad climber
State of confusion
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Apr 16, 2008 - 09:40pm PT
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Touche' Werner.
I just wish I'd written it.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 16, 2008 - 09:51pm PT
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Yos grid bolting - all that "Energizer", "Killer Pillar", Chapel Wall clip-up stuff that went in - wasn't that all early 90's? I assume it was on rap, possibly power drill.
I wouldn't assume all this went in top down.
There was a brief period when folks (including the authorities) didn't realize
that power-drilling was illegal under the Wilderness Act. During this time,
folks did put in routes ground up, using power drills.
It is startling what can be stanced with a power drill. Golden Years was "set"
with a total of 5 A0 points, including all belays.
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jstan
climber
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Apr 16, 2008 - 10:17pm PT
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Thanks guys. An eastern climbing friend once in awhile would complain that his brain was leaking out of his ears. Over the years i am pretty sure that has happened to me. I just needed to know whether or not I was having another such incident right here.
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abisharat
climber
CO
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Apr 16, 2008 - 10:33pm PT
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Hi
I'm sorry that many of you felt like my eBlast denigrated this website and the type of dialogue that is obviously important to your self-worth, as either climbers or people who invest a lot of time in this website. I'm glad that you have found something to care about--in this case, debating the pros and cons of this route on Half Dome--and I certainly know how important it is to have a raison d'etre and place to get off a few times a week, if not more, in order to feel like you are contributing to something greater than yourself. I do the same thing with my weekly "column" e-mail ... and I certainly don't presume to be above the fray in terms of this type of conversation--you should see how misspelled, and often poorly thought-out my writing is on the regular. In fact, that's exactly what you see ...
Still, I stand by what I wrote, and I don't apologize for it. As someone has already noted above, the eBlast intended to use this forum as an example to tackle a larger issue about how removed we are from reality. It's something I feel strongly about, and I don't take it back--even if everyone here thinks it's "retarded," unoriginal or wrong.
I think climbing is the opposite of all of this stuff here, so why is this such a pre-occupation? Climbing is real, and when you do it and enjoy it, there's no bullsh#t--even if you suck (like me) or rap bolt or climb onsight ground up free solo. The trick is to find your own path and find something you enjoy--there's plenty of rock, plenty to aspire to, and plenty of styles to climb in and have fun with. We all know this, but the divide between what we say through the convenience of the Internet--and the reasons we say those things as well--and the way that we act in real life is large. Like I said in the eBlast, this divide reveals itself in many ways--I used the political rhetoric of the current administration as an example, but I think it's much more vast that that.
Everything seems so sanitized--through legislation, lawyers, fees, packaging (of food), processing, and the Internet, especially climbing forums. My point and opinion is that this packaging up of reality destroys the soul--the personal one and the soul of our sport. Don't agree with me? I respectfully don't care.
In climbing, we talk so frequently about "soul" ... soul climbers, the soul sport, the climbing lifestyle ... but what does that really mean? I would argue that no one here would include "packaging climbing into an abstract concept to debate on the internet" as one of the primary reasons they climb. If they do, then I guess I am more out of touch than I though.
But I don't think I am. I presume to be in sync with the pulse of the sport--just like everyone else here does--because I get out to the crags and try my hardest at every chance I can get. And it's fun.
In any case, I agree that it's good and useful to talk about different styles of climbing--the merits of one style versus the other--and if this medium is the best way to do that, so be it. I love this sport specifically because of how varied it is--how not every route you get on is the same, some are spicy, some are safe, etc. It's awesome. There's a lot of rock out there to climb on, and a lot of opportunities to find happiness by interacting with a very raw reality: vertical rock. My opinion is that if you explore that without preconceptions, judgements and ideas of what's "right" and "wrong," then climbers would be a lot happier ... but they'd also have a lot less to bitch about online. Or, whatever you want to call it: "discuss" deeply by typing keys linked to a vast virtual web of information that is instantaneously updated through no effort of the person whatsoever.
Anyway, that's the only comment I can bring myself to write. I am honestly flattered that you have taken what I wrote seriously. Thanx for reading. Please subscribe to RI, too. There's occasionally cool stuff in there.
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