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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 19, 2012 - 01:18pm PT
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Riley, it is like using a report of an accident out of AINAM where there are 2 climbers and one fatality to "prove" that half the time you go climbing you will die.
People have repeated the "43 times as likely" so many times that "everybody knows its true".
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 19, 2012 - 01:22pm PT
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It does make sense that when guns are available, they'll be used by people who want to commit suicide instead of other means. No one disputes that guns provide very effective means to kill people.
Yeah, I was thinking about all the people I've personally met who have been killed or injured by guns (outside of war) Most were suicides, a few were accidentally shot by misfired weapons. Nobody shot anybody in self defense
FWIW
Peace
Karl
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 19, 2012 - 01:34pm PT
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Here is an easy to use online calculator Riley.
http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_us.html
Have to read to see where hanging goes (suffocation maybe).
Hanging is a very effective way to kill oneself (easier than some think). Firearms are more effective (but messier). Some people care about that when they chose to end their lives.
Harder to do so with pills. It's very sad. No one blames guns for this, but there is no denying they are effective for the task.
edit: One other thing... about the kid being a gun-nut. People describe murderers often as criminals, however for many, they were not criminals until AFTER they did the killing. And many describe them as crazy though before hand there was no sign of it. Knowing they are crazy, murders or gun-nuts after the fact isn't very useful. Well, except it make a person feel better than no one they know could do such a thing since they don't hang out with crazies, gun-nuts or murderers. Wonder why afterward so many say they were just so surprised and never saw it coming. :/
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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Dec 19, 2012 - 01:39pm PT
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"Guns are, socially and ethically, devastating. Worthless. They add nothing of positive, intrinsic value to a culture, a people, a country. They only diminish, destroy, display an awesome sense of malformed ego and disastrously warped humanity.
"Too much? Too far? Not really. I’m sure you already sense that all those cartoonish action movies, thuggish hip-hop songs, clunky old westerns, ultra-violent video games and the racks of high-caliber weaponry over at Cabela sporting goods and the local gun show – all of which we’ve been led to believe are so essential to our national identity – none of them offer anything of deep worth to the culture; no authentic masculinity, no real patriotism, no genuine power or strength or class. Heart, soul or integrity? Don’t be absurd."
~Mark Morford
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 19, 2012 - 01:44pm PT
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I collect reproductions of 19th century rifles.
Many are more than mere working models. They are examples of fine craftsmanship.
I do not shoot them very much, some even never, and as combat/ self-defense pieces they are woefully obsolete.
But the notion that some of the people here, who haven't even got a clue of their place in history, but wish to render them non-firing, even aside from the obvious deflation in value, strike me as mule headed visigoths.
I wonder how they would feel if they collected antique cars, but weren't allowed by law to actually have spark plugs in them.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 19, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
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Binks, good one.
Crimpie: Wonder why afterward so many say they were just so surprised and never saw it coming.
Just off-hand I'd say, as I understand was the case in this incident, that about the time you are considering or have filed a petition for involuntary commitment is probably a good time to remove weapons from the home. That mental illness and guns don't mix well in the same home shouldn't be rocket science. Perhaps doctors and mental health professionals need to be required to start asking about weapons in the home when diagnosing mental illness or prescribing particular medications. HIPAA changes should be allowed in order to tie diagnoses with gun access and allow local authorities to follow-up on the weapons access. Such households should be required to remove or secure any weapons with removal being preferred.
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Anastasia
climber
InLOVEwithAris.
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Dec 19, 2012 - 02:21pm PT
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Crimpie, I so love your brain.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 19, 2012 - 02:29pm PT
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I wonder what correlation could be presented regarding "crimes of passion".
How many gun deaths and suicides may have been prevented with a cooling off period for those with inflamed emotions. A count to ten and breathe. Stigmatizing mental health issues will not help encourage these folks to go talk with someone. These heinous acts done with guns (and knives and lead pipes and ropes and pillows and mushrooms) including assaults, suicides and mass murders seem to be, for the perpetrator at least, tragically permanent solutions to temporary problems.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Dec 19, 2012 - 02:37pm PT
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And many describe them as crazy though before hand there was no sign of it. . . Wonder why afterward so many say they were just so surprised and never saw it coming. :/
That isn't my perception of the perpetrators of these mass shootings at all--seems to me that the perpetrators are more-or-less obvious whackos (not always whacko as in it's clear they were going to murder a bunch of people, just obviously very abnormal people). While it's chilling (albeit interesting) to think that a guy who seems to be completely normal one day could be going nuts and shooting people the next, that doesn't seem to be what happens.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 19, 2012 - 02:38pm PT
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So Ron,
I see from your new signature line that you are "soon to be a nipple sucking liberal"
is your mouth about to leave the NRA's nipple and suck on a "liberal's instead?
will this be a live web cam event?
you must be pretty proud of yourself for posting your new sign line..
it shows your "contempt" for "liberals" very well
congratulations for being an unbiased, non divisive, tell it straight and proudly guy
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 19, 2012 - 02:42pm PT
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^^^ What lose your card? Probably stashed it where you put your marbles.
Crimpie, I so love your brain.
MMM love brain, must eat brain.
Zombies don't kill, eating brains does.
Stop watching FOX and listening to AM radio talk shows, It is all eating your brain.
I'm not saying that Anastasia is a zombie, not that there is anything wrong with that.
And now for something completely different again.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2017719/Boobs-Yes-this-is-damn-OT
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 19, 2012 - 02:44pm PT
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Philo, when I was younger I volunteered at a suicide and crisis intervention center and on a sheriff/police assist 'go-out' team serving 23 counties in SoIll where mental health care was limited or non-existent.
If you classify 'crimes of passion' as domestic violence then you end up with those families with perennial issues, sometimes across generations, and those that never hit the radar until it's too late or in life or death crisis. Crimpie would know better, but domestic violence calls represent some of the highest risk officers face when responding to calls so getting out in front of domestic violence whenever possible and resources are available is always preferred.
Suicides are similar with some folks known to either have issues or are experiencing trying times and others that you only find out about too late, some of those being quite premeditated and well planned.
"Stigmatizing" isn't what I'm proposing, but rather some straightforward and sensible measures for potentially getting out ahead of potential gun violence problems when healthcare professionals come to diagnostic / prognostic conclusions which indicated risk of harm to self or other. That may be based on behavior or potential medication side effects, either way I'm talking reasonable precautions linking healthcare and law enforcement professionals, not stigmatizing folks.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 19, 2012 - 02:45pm PT
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Thanks Anastasia. I am teaching grad stats this spring. Too bad you aren't here. If you were, I'm help you bloom as a stats loving maniac. :)
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 19, 2012 - 02:48pm PT
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^^^ You first.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 19, 2012 - 03:03pm PT
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I've wanted plenty of people dead, especially when I was younger and dumber. In a rage, yeah, I could have gone off the handle. But when it comes down to it, I've never even hit anyone who hasn't hit me first.
One of the reasons I'm highly in favor of more gun control is because I've had 4 pulled on me by nut jobs for what I thought were pretty lame reasons. There are just too many nut jobs out there to make guns that accessible.
Ron, would you pull a gun on 17 yr olds doing donuts in a dirt lot by your house? What if they were brown? If so, you don't deserve to be trusted with a gun.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 19, 2012 - 03:05pm PT
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Raises hand. I absolutely know of a few occasions I would have shot someone had I a firearm handy. I also now know that shooting them would not have made the situation better. Not one of them.
This is how I know I am not appropriate to carry a weapon like a firearm. So next time people talk about arming professors (or any aggregation of folks) think about me. :/
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 19, 2012 - 03:14pm PT
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Ron, pretty simple, if the diagnosis and Rx fit, surveying for guns and securing or removing any present is probably a reasonable and prudent thing to do. I had a friend once who had some issues with depression which turned out to actually be hypothyroid (obvious once he turned yellow). While in that state I talked him out of the barrels to his two Glocks - gave them back about nine months later. All good. It's ain't rocket science, stigmatizing, or a bad idea - just basic common sense.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 19, 2012 - 03:15pm PT
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So it is not a surprise that people will pull a gun over words typed on a message board? And you don't think there needs to be more gun control? Are you daft?
Yeah, I was an as#@&%e... and I deserved to be punched... but the pussies didn't punch, they pulled a gun... for donuts in a parking lot across from their house, mooning them while driving down the street, etc. It is 100% unacceptable to pull a gun and threaten the life of a 17 year old kid. If you can't control yourself in situations like that, you shouldn't have a gun. I suspect most people who have a gun shouldn't have one. More regulation...
http://www.baynews9.com/content/news/baynews9/news/article.html/content/news/articles/bn9/2012/12/18/_stand_your_ground_c.html
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 19, 2012 - 03:16pm PT
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I've met Crimpie and can state categorically that she's good to belay almost all the time.
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