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uli__
climber
Milan, Italy
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My opinion is based on being one of the first people to climb the Maestri/Egger route to the Col of Conquest.
opinion the term is correct
My opinion is based on fact not emotion.
"based on" is not equivalent to "is a", so your opinion is based on facts you experienced as the opinion of everyone else in the world, nevertheless they are just only opinions as nobody is omnipresent and omniscient and the facts that he bases his opinion on are filtered by his perception
All I said was that Maestri's opinion should not be factored in. I said nothing about chopping bolts.
we were talking about chopping bolts or making chains of daisies? and you called Maestri a liar now and some 80 posts ago and calling him a liar is just an opinion not a fact so don't hide yourself behind your shadow
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Maestri left a continuous trail of hardware and tat while climbing the beginning of the route and then suddenly did the rest of it clean - right, totally delusional.
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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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@donini,
your opinion is based on the assumption that Maestri's memories were reliable. I cannot be 100 % sure that, after someone is swapt by an avalanche, found half dead on the glacier and having lost a friend, he can remember well what he experienced.
You didn't find consistent Maestri's description with what you saw, but this doesn't necessarily makes him a liar.
And because other people want to make more sense of Maestri's inconsistencies, they have the right to be more concern to Maestri's opinion than to yours.
And even if he lied, I don't think this is a sufficient reason to disrespect a person.
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uli__
climber
Milan, Italy
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@healyje
maybe he lied or maybe the wall was covered with thick ice and the litter just went down with melting, nobody knows
as this game has ever been a gentleman game, before calling someone a liar some non circumstantial evidence should have been produced
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Again, delusional. In this case I can only assume misplaced nationalism to be the cause - otherwise it's hard to know how to account for statements like this:
And even if he lied, I don't think this is a sufficient reason to disrespect a person.
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uli__
climber
Milan, Italy
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@Randisi
I know that very well, try to say it to Donini that pretends to teach us about reality
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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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@healyje
Again, delusional. In this case I can only assume misplaced nationalism to be the cause - otherwise it's hard to know how to account for statements like this: Let's see if you get it.
Someone steal a chicken to feed the starving family.
Someone steal a chicken because he hates his neighbour.
Do you put them at the same level?
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uli__
climber
Milan, Italy
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@enzolino
And even if he lied, I don't think this is a sufficient reason to disrespect a person.
this time I have to agree with healyje, if he lied I would disrespect him (but not unbolt his route for this reason)
to me the point is not guilty until proof of evidence. evidences that Donini confuses with (his) opinions, apparently
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
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If someone is a liar, that says heaps more about their character than how badass a climber the are. Or were.
The evidence against CM is overwhelming unfortunately.
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uli__
climber
Milan, Italy
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The evidence against CM is overwhelming unfortunately.
in which court?
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Donini's observations some years after 1959, climbing where Maestri should have climbed 1959, are more than just opinions. Dionini's observations indicates something, but they are not proof.
Also Maestri claiming to have climbed the route first time (1959) and then having to bolts his way to the top second time is more than just opinion and indicates something. No proof though.
Edited: My intention saying this is to say that observations are much stronger than just opinions, but that they do not prove that Maestri lied. If you ask me about my opinion... well...
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uli__
climber
Milan, Italy
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@Marlow
pay attention in what you say or you'll become an "italian nationalist" honoris causa :-)
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
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in which court?
This one.
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uli__
climber
Milan, Italy
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in which court?
This one.
oh, I thought you were serious
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house of cards
climber
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Both Salvaterra and Conti were clearly in favor of the bolt removal. I can appreciate that they disagree with how it was done, but they must take responsibility for having in part motivated the act.
What has Alex Huber said on the matter? anything?
this is what he said a few years back:
"Alla fine un altro tipo di progetto mi stimolerebbe comunque molto di piu: per essempio eliminare la serie de chiodi a espansione di Maestri, cosi indegna di questa fantastica montagna. Un Cerro Torre liberato del compressore tornerebbe a essere un traguardo autentico. E senza pensare all'arrampicata libera, l'ascensione in se sarebbe una sfida piu che sufficiente"
(page 288, Cerro Torre Mito della Patagonia, by Tom Dauer, originally published in german in 2004)
Rough translation: He is talking about free climbing the Compressor route and explains: "In the end I come to the conclusion that another kind of project would motivate me much more, for example taking out Maestri's bolts, so "undeserving" in a fantastic mountain like this one. A Cerro Torre without the compressor would go back to being an authentic challenge. Without even thinking of free climbing an ascent would be a more that deserving challenge". May be Uli or Enzolino can do a better job translating.
I know that last year Alex also expressed similar views in Desnivel, but I dont have the quotes with me.
So, Huber, Salvaterra, Conti, all in favor of taking the bolts out, at least before it happened.
Is the older generation not accountable for their own words? They were sending the Kennedys and Kruks some pretty clear messages.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
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oh, I thought you were serious I am serious.
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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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@TwistedCrank
If someone is a liar, that says heaps more about their character than how badass a climber the are. Or were.
The evidence against CM is overwhelming unfortunately. Well ... I agree that the evidence against Maestri are overwhelming. However, until that claimed achievement, Maestri's previous accomplishments were witnessed by other climbers and his integrity was undisputable.
So, if I have to be honest this issue puzzles me. If he didn't credit Egger for the merit of climb CT in 1959, I would have believed that he lied just for his ego. But it was not the case.
The reasons why he climbed CT with another style and on another face, has already been explained several times.
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uli__
climber
Milan, Italy
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@house of cards
the same Huber that expansion bolted routes on Dolomites?
I see were you are aiming to, so you think that part of the responsability should be laid upon the shoulders of them who spoke about unbolting rather than upon those who actually did the action.
I agree, what about Garibotti as the main instigator?
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uli__
climber
Milan, Italy
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@TwistedCrank
so you're serious and this is a court, could you please tell me which is the penalty for being an as.h.le?
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
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so you're serious and this is a court, could you please tell me which is the penalty for being an as.h.le?
It's not a penalty. It's a badge of honor.
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