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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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I'll tell you what's catastrophically messed up - wisdom is a pain in the ass and ignorance is bliss and there's no way to straighten this out.
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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Karl - you don't have this quite right.
Radiation and contamination are not the same thing. Taking a flight will expose one to cosmic radiation not radioactive contamination. When radioactive isotopes enter into water, crops, milk that leads to radioactive contamination. Contamination occurs when material that contains radioactive isotopes is no longer contained. It is important to remember that radiation cannot spread or get "in" or "on" people; rather it is radioactive contamination that can do precisely that. Here lies the essential difference between the two.......
This is all about the biological effects of ionizing radiation -- high-energy photons like gamma rays and x-rays or energetic particles like neutrons, "beta" radiation (electrons) and alpha particles (very commonly released when these heavy isotopes decay). So to say "cosmic radiation is not radioactive contamination" is not right. Cosmic rays (photos or particles) fly through your body all the time, and more per second per surface area do so if you are in a plane at 35000 ft than if you are at sea level. If they fly through your body, you never know. If they interact with an atom or molecule in your body and the energy is absorbed and damages the cell you have been irradiated. Swallow some radioactive iodine and the same statements are true. The iodine decays, ionizing particles or photons are emitted and they either fly through your body and have no effect or their energy is absorbed and a cell is damaged.
At this level, you would need to drink 632 liters of this rain water to obtain the same radiation effects you obtain on a round-trip flight between San Francisco and Washington D.C.
Whether this is disingenuous only depends on how carefully the language was considered. "the same radiation effects" would suggest that the calculation has been done to take the type of radiation, the absorption cross section of the human body to that radiation and the amount of radiation into account in making the statement.
Stated another way, they imply that they took the radiation density (the "bq" unit) and the properties of the human body for absorption of the particular radiation in either internally- contained Iodine or in the external radiation field at 35000 ft and converted into radiation does (the "rad" or "sv" unit) and calculated the same dose.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Would some of you like some sugar and cream to go with your depression or you guys just like it straight?
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WBraun
climber
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No one is depressed.
We are all happy .....
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I'm happy!
The thing your explanation fails to emphasize Mike, and it's important, is that if you fly across the country, that radiation goes right through your body for a short time but that radiation stops going right through your body once you descend to the ground that is protected more by the atmosphere.
If you ingest radioactive Iodine, it lodges itself in your thyroid gland where, at very, very close range, it irradiates the very same cells intensely, over and over, until the source decays. This sort of radiation doesn't penetrate very far but is very harmful and intense to the body's cells. That causes cancer.
PS Here's video of a guy finding radiation in Missouri rainwater
http://pissinontheroses.blogspot.com/2011/03/video-radioactive-rain-and.html
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I find it interesting that people get upset and offended when somebody tries to sort out the facts of a situation which has negative implications. It's like they are doing something wrong.
I experienced the same backlash when trying to explain the phenomena of Peak Oil a few years back. (The Saudis were still claiming they could provide 25$ a barrel oil for decades..more happy talk) Lots of people lined up to deny it but it was the emotion that they were determined not to believe and blame the messenger that showed me that this is a part of human nature...denial.
Any of you out there still want to deny that we are approaching a point where oil production is peaking and will gradually diminish over time?
Of course, problems with Nuclear and the fact Oil is becoming scarcer are dovetailing dilemmas as electricity from Nukes could help us mitigate loss of petrol availability in parts of the transportation sector. We have a difficult squeeze chimney to negotiate.
Ps. In fact, I'm one of the happiest people I know and I know great people. It's sort of like climbing, just because I know a climb is going to have hard or grueling sections doesn't necessarily bum me out
Peace
Karl
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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REM: "ITEOTWAWKI and I feel fine"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0GFRcFm-aY
It's not the end yet. But it does get depressing thinking about it. Many things have to occur in a very specific order and then an end of this age of man comes to a close, and a new one begins. The Earth doesn't end, its "The Millenium" 1000 years of peace. I can't wait.
But right now we have an incredible amount of work ahead of us to take care of things and to clean up the mess we made of things. It will get worse before it gets better, unfortunately. You can blame man's stubbornness, greed, and contemptuous hate of GOD. All of these problems are our own. We had to do it our way didn't we? Have we learned our lesson yet? Probably not.
Edit:
By the way, I am happy in my soul, but I am also constantly concerned and watching. Jesus said to watch and be ready, but to help and stay busy also doing what must be done. I try to be. I do what I can do.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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So Werner,.. does Charlie Sheen really have tiger's blood?
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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This notion of afterlife and the "happy talk" about how it's all going to work out and how it's all part of God's plan is a way of shirking that responsibility. So that's where I am."
Errr.. just so you know. Karl, myself and Werner do not believe that "it will all work out", as though we have to do nothing. We believe in reincarnation, and thus if we don't do anything in this lifetime, then we will be coming back to this world. And if the world keeps spiraling down, then things could get a lot worse. We would rather try to face it in this lifetime, rather then try to put it off.
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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from http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/05_38.html
updated at 17:23 UTC, Apr. 06
Plant radiation monitor says levels immeasurable
A radiation monitor at the troubled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant says workers there are exposed to immeasurable levels of radiation.
The monitor told NHK that no one can enter the plant's No. 1 through 3 reactor buildings because radiation levels are so high that monitoring devices have been rendered useless. He said even levels outside the buildings exceed 100 millisieverts in some places.
Pools and streams of water contaminated by high-level radiation are being found throughout the facility.
The monitor said he takes measurements as soon as he finds water, because he can't determine whether it's contaminated just by looking at it. He said he's very worried about the safety of workers there.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Any of you out there still want to deny that we are approaching a point where oil production is peaking and will gradually diminish over time?
Karl already knows this. But FYI: Worldwide, it peaked LAST decade. We're NOW into the descent already. "Pray" that it is (a) gradual and managed (like getting "lowered off" to use a climbing metaphor) and not (b) catastrophic and bloodletting (like in a big leader fall after runout) with deep cratering impacts everywhere.
But keep this to yourself. Don't share this info with the public for goodness sake.
"We certainly don't want to spook the markets."
.....
EDIT
re: bold-faced government lies
What, is a bold-faced government lie ANY WORSE than a bold-faced Abrahamic or Buddhist lie?
For christsake, where do you think the politicans and bureaucrats learn to tell their feelgood lies because it's okay, righteous? ANSWER: Church or Mosque or Synagogue. Duh, Losing. I mean, Winning.
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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Karl - I agree, but all this stuff is well defined. Integrated dosage flying for an hour in a plane or ingesting an amount of radioactive material, dose rate, radiation density without considering the biological cross-sections--all this stuff is easy to calculate or measure. Everyone just needs to be talking about the same thing using a common language. So, I still don't know how carefully this sentence was considered and crafted:
"At this level, you would need to drink 632 liters of this rain water to obtain the same radiation effects you obtain on a round-trip flight between San Francisco and Washington D.C."
If "radiation effects" means integrated dose, then don't worry. If those folks who made the comparison don't know the difference between rates and integrated totals then look at this more carefully. But you can't really claim "disingenuousness" unless you know more than the rest of us.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Mike, the data would be right there for us to calculate (ie, it would be easy to find out the radiation for such a flight and compare it with the radiation in that rainwater)
But supertopo is already sucking too much time. I think it already speaks volumes that the rainwater was 181 times the federal standard for drinking water and yet the feds don't mandate any extra radiation shielding on planes to my knowledge.
Those forms of radiation just aren't comparable.
Peace
Karl
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Comparing different things like rainwater vs flying can be very useful in explaining the situation to the laymen. It's ok to be critical of the comparison as long as one knows all the factors that went into the comparison.
Planes can't be shielded due to weight issues so the ICRP and the FAA have set the limits for flight crew to 2,000 mrem per year.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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As of 4/6/2011
The Japanese government is considering strengthening oversight of the nuclear industry by separating the regulatory agency from the ministry in charge of promoting nuclear power. The Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency, which is part of the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry, has been criticized for being too cozy with companies it is supposed to police.
Last week Prime Minister Naoto Kan said he would consider whether and how to remove the conflict of interest. This could include moving the regulatory body under control of the cabinet and merging it with an advisory group, according to a report Wednesday in the Mainichi Shimbun newspaper.
Hmmmm! Sounds like on how Japan’s solving this crisis: they are learning or taking lessons from us.
What is happening in Washington with the way the Republicans think and act, we would all be dead.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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www.nukepills.com/dirty-bomb-emergency-kit.htm
You can also buy on line from Amazon but they say Quote:
"Currently unavailable.
We don't know when or if this item will be back in stock."
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Oh, crap. I'm going for a hike.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Ask yourself the same about rrrAdam.
DMT
I don't remember shooting a rrrAdam, but having a discussion where we have differences of opinion about how to interpret risk, priority, and benefit levels implied by data and events.
peace
Karl
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