Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2011 - 04:50pm PT
|
Ok, let's try a little 'subjective experience' and 'empty the mind' experiment: do eight shots of the high test alcohol of your choice in ten minute intervals and then report back to us about about your 'experience', what just comes up, and the constancy of your consciousness.
|
|
Evel
Trad climber
Nedsterdam CO
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2011 - 04:50pm PT
|
I think there's a possible answer in some of Richard Feynman's writing. Looking for it now. May take a while though. This is a bit much for me.
May have found it: Feynman's Joy of Not Knowing/The Thinking Mind
Or not (knott)
|
|
Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2011 - 04:53pm PT
|
Largo,
"just more looking at the brain and experience as a thing".
Whatever floats through your consciousness - what materialises and is seen by us, are things. Your words are things you know. There is no way around things when you argue. Even if you should insist on them being non-things.
And feelings are certainly material in nature. You can measure brain activity, hormones and so on.
Why is it important to you to cling to a fragile and low probability hypothesis about a non-thing consiousness and non-thing mind?
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 31, 2011 - 05:08pm PT
|
Why is it important to you to cling to a fragile and low probability hypothesis about a non-thing consiousness and non-thing mind?
Your narrow focusing again, dood. That's not the drill here.
But to answer your question anyhow, the simple fact is, experience, as it unfolds inside your awareness, does not stop. You can pause and freeze frame various qual, and the evaluating mind can get hold of them as things - fo sho. The flow of experience itself is not a thing in the same qualitative way that a billiard ball or a starfish is a thing. And most of all, the awareness field itself, raw awareness - also experienced as 1st person "presence" - is most assuredly not a measurable thing in and of itself (no reverting to the mechanism you believe "creates" same - that's jumping out of the 1st person process).
JL
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2011 - 05:33pm PT
|
It could be that Hartouni and Largo's inability to share a common view of the world is nothing more than an expression of the strengths of certain areas of their brains.
It seems to me that Ed is speaking about a highly refined use of the discursive conscious mind and Largo about a highly refined use of the awareness- only subconscious or unconscious mind.
They are also probably focussing on different historical periods of the evolved meat brain. Awareness is common to all animals and discursive thought only to recent humans. Discursive thought is highly useful in modern times. However, our most basic autonomic and emotional responses long preceded our use of language which Ed and others define as consciousness. A fully developed (enlightened) brain would be able to utilize both at will.
Of course most people do not really utilize even that portion of the brain they have chosen to specialize in. There are so many levels of consciousness that our mind/brains look like maps in an atlas. We see individual maps easily but flounder when trying to describe the book as a whole.
From the realm of consciousness, some of these include:
-Language (with sub maps for different languages and different experiences of consciousness depending on which language
-Mathematics as a form of language
 aesthetic consciousness which combines language with emotion as in poetry, literature, and music, as described by Patrick Oliver
From the higher realms of the subconscious:
-Intuitive consciousness
-social consciousness
-messages and Innovations through dreams
-art
-dance
-climbing
-From the lower realms of the unconscious
-Sex
-swimming
-massage
Spirituality is the result of positive intentionality which involves discipline and sacrifice. Anger becomes compassion, sex becomes tantra, ego becomes unselfishness, climbing becomes art form, by raising the unconscious to the conscious, understanding it, and imposing rules and limitations.
What is so far little known in the West are the techniques for transforming raw emotions to higher thought processes with intentionality
-regulating hormones (endocrine glands, dopamine, serotonin) with meditation, acupuncture, yoga, kum nye, martial arts
-raising or lowering heartbeat, breathing, and blood pressure with meditation, yoga, kum nye, martial arts)
Whether one sees this as the glorious potential of the evolved meat brain or raising one's consciousness to be in synch with a universal consciousness is a personal choice.
|
|
Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2011 - 05:37pm PT
|
Largo.
You like to use the word narrow when you address my perspective, where I would use the word clear. There is a great scientific depth to the perspective if you want to get deeper.
Then if my perspective is narrow, I guess you would think your own perspective is broad and I will add that your perspective is also speculatively mentalistic and scientifically superficial.
|
|
survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2011 - 05:42pm PT
|
You spend too much time thinking about what your mind is thinking about and you're missing some of the pure experience too...
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2011 - 05:50pm PT
|
The flow of experience itself is not a thing in the same qualitative way that a billiard ball or a starfish is a thing
You're right, it's a electro-chemical cascade which is highly dependent on the quality of your meat. Drugs or alcohol have almost immediate corrupting effects on that flow of experience - how could that possibly be? I know you don't want to talk about it, but those, and other meat impairments, highlight how dependent consciousness is on the health of the meat.
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 31, 2011 - 05:50pm PT
|
Marlo, I'm not talking about "narrow" in terms of being shallow, I'm talking about narrow in terms of the shutter on a camera. If you are focused on an idea, your focus is narrowed and tight. There is no value judgment on narrow or tight.
You mention "clear" mind and all I'm saying is that investigating mind 1st person required a special approach, worked on for centuries. You open up the focus, pretty much the opposite of narrow focusing on a thought or feeling or whatever. The drill is not to narrow focus on stuff/qual, but mind itself, which means gently breathing into it without bathos or baggage or language. Never easy IME.
But I'd be interested to see what folks find per John S's terms (awareness, content, etc.) as opposed to drinking jokes, rants on meat brain etc.
JL
|
|
Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2011 - 05:53pm PT
|
sir real, man. that ya'll spend thought circles like this.
here's somore:
what is dream?
what is?
what is god?
what is nothing?
what is why is how is because?
what if?
everything fits in between the silences.
you should be loud, so not to interrupt john's thinkings.
|
|
Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2011 - 05:54pm PT
|
I get my best ideas when I wake up from dreaming two or three hours after midnight or in the middle of the day when I am focused and absorbed into what I am doing. Then I have to write it down not to loose it. That is just part of my nature, my secondary nature included. There is no hocus pocus, no need to search for a non biological and non psychological explanation.
And openness of mind, mindfulness and mind-empty-ness I experience more often during holidays than when I am at work. But why the need to see it as something that is non-thing.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2011 - 05:56pm PT
|
Marlow has no clue what largo is talking about.
Absolutely none.
Marlow just keeps talking about himself .......
|
|
pa
climber
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2011 - 06:01pm PT
|
Thank you Jan...nicely put.
|
|
Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2011 - 06:05pm PT
|
WBraun
Thanks. I appreciate that you are emptying your mind into the commons, speaking as the oracle you are.
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 31, 2011 - 06:31pm PT
|
Marlow, you actually have people, quite possibly friends, trying to walk you to other places and you insist on staying put.
How, for instance, is the direct, 1st person experience of being you for the next five minutes, a "thing" in the same sense that a cell phone is a thing?
Verily, dude, insisting that you know, as a transparent fact, terrain you equate to down-time during Thanksgiving, ain't getting you nowhere.
Try this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ICJUFOJa2g
Make no effort to process the tune as you hear it, go neither toward nor yet away from said tuneage, and make no effort in any way.
What are the basic elements, from a 1st person perspective, that you find in play as you listen, if beforehand you let go of all that you think that you know? Try and answer John S's questions about terms for the components of the process.
JL
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2011 - 06:40pm PT
|
In one of his Youtube videos Feynman says he has limitations. He thought himself not terribly bright. He said he just loves “to find out” and that this was his “soul”. When warm blooded mammals first evolved they were saddled with a huge requirement for energy. Mammals have an urgent need “to find out” where they can get food. Possibly Feynman’s need “to find out” dates from that momentous time. If it did, all the mammals we encounter share this property with us.
Largo suffers from the same defect. He wants to find out whether his feeling that there is some dimension to the world beyond the material – is correct. Though I have never had that feeling, looking around myself I can see that Largo is not the only person with such a feeling. If I follow my earlier description of consciousness as an environment in which we are guided by imperatives, I would suggest that this is one of John’s secondary imperatives.
We are talking about a feeling issuing from the brain, though the brain could itself be hormone driven from some other initial source. The first step in an inquiry, presumably, would be to ask why do we have this feeling? Since he has taken the conscious action of writing here on the subject we know the feeling has reached at least that level of neurological processing. We have to ask, “How do things reach the conscious level? And what constitutes the conscious level? How do the conscious and other levels interact?
Spurred by HFCS’ link I have looked more widely for discussions of the conscious and how it interacts with other levels of processing. It turns out this is a very active area of research and participants are today carefully working through defintions of words like, blindsight, feedforward and recurrent processing, attention, preattentive response, among others.
Rock climbers depend upon on such processing to stay alive.
On occasion while walking along, we all have had incidents where for no conscious reason we duck. We image a rock headed for us. We don’t carefully examine the scene showing the rock’s progress, nor do we carry on an extended process to decide upon our best response. Reflexively, we duck.
Evolution has given us several parallel work-arounds to deal with a primary neurological limitation, the time for a synaptic response.
The firing of a synaptic neurological response requires about one twentieth of a second for the appropriate ions to be gathered at a cell membrane. If our brains required us to go through a series of 100 synapses passing through higher and higher levels of the brain’s functional hierarchy, none of us would be alive. What are some of these work-arounds and how do we know they are there?
Blindsight and recurrent processing
Lamme and Roelfsema describe subjects who have suffered lesions to the V1 areas and who therefore lack the ability to render conscious images. They are blind, but if a flag of some color is shown them they can tell you its color. Processing required to produce the images we see is done high in the neurological chain and they require use of substantial data. Evolution has provided us a parallel route, not requiring this processing, to get visually derived data to a decision making area very rapidly. But wait. There is more.
We climbers do what is called recurrent processing. After climbing for a few years we have been through a wide variety of situations and have both consciously and subconsciously worked out the decisions needed to respond. So when a reflexive response is needed we need no time to make a decision. When the leader pulls off a block and yells “rock” the noobie has to say “well what the f am I supposed to do about it?” The experienced second knows immediately to unclip the anchor and to swing out over the abyss on the belay rope. This strategy has the salutory effect of educating the leader as regards the advisability of pulling blocks off.
Time as a constraint is also dealt with as regards just the transmission of neurological impulses. If we think of the transmitting nerves as data pipelines those dedicated to carrying huge amounts of data might well be much slower than a parallel pipeline intended to transmit small amounts. For a rapid response one of these fast pipelines is stimulated to send a signal to an area that recurrent processing has already prepared even to the extent of having a stored image of the danger. This is called “feedforward.” These images can be quite complete. In some cases a police officer images a coke can or any other object in someone’s hand as being a weapon.
The needed response is fedforward and gets there before the more complete dataset. Now get this. When the complete dataset gets there a half second later you are left saying to yourself, “Crickeys! I swear I have been here before!”
Déjà vu.
There is no problem explaining why it is only a portion of us have Largo’s feeling. As you might guess from the above, investigators find that each person’s neurological wiring is configured based upon that individual’s genetics and prior experience. Individually, individually mind you, each of us is very robustly built to survive in the life to which we are used . When we change our life, like taking up trad climbing, we need to do so in measured fashion.
Below some links that, to this observer, seem useful to those interested in the conscious and subconscious dichotomy.
http://www.jeroenvanboxtel.com/pubs/Tsuchiya2010-CommentCognNeurosc.pdf
Is recurrent processing necessary and/or sufficient for consciousness?
http://www.jeroenvanboxtel.com/pubs/vanBoxtel2010-pnas.pdf
Opposing effects of attention and consciousness on after images
http://www.unicog.org/publications/SergentDehaene_PsychScience04.pdf
Evidence for an All-or-None Bifurcation During the Attentional Blink
http://www.ini.uzh.ch/~peterk/Lectures/AttentionSeminar/Lamme.Tins.00.pdf
The distinct modes of vision offered by feedforward and recurrent processing
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2011 - 07:15pm PT
|
jstan, at this point Largo has made it pretty clear he isn't interested in what goes on in the meat despite the fact he couldn't continue taking part in this discussion if he suffered any number of brain insults tomorrow. He's pretty focused on [a albeit sober] consciousness exploring itself (though then wonders why he finds no boundaries...).
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2011 - 07:42pm PT
|
Joe:
I too am able to imagine all of cosmic history in a 10 second long span of time. If I can decrease that to one second I think I can nail down a slot in the Guinness Book of World Records.
Wish me luck!
There really is no boundary to imagination. Anything can be imagined, so the statement that one is at the edge of their imagination is not readily understood.
That stuff on consciousness is fascinating. The research papers are little dense for a novitiate like myself but after a bit of work it comes together. The papers are written with careful attention to the words used so sense can be made from them.
|
|
jogill
climber
Colorado
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2011 - 10:40pm PT
|
I have a dog named Jake
a clever little guy
He contemplates the mysteries
from earth to distant sky.
When asked about the mind
and body, how they link
He said, "I think, therefore I arf "
...and sealed it with a wink.
Scientist and philosopher
may draw the battle line,
but in my eyes, my little dog
reveals the truth just fine!
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
Incredible.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!