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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Thanks, BASE. I envy all the memories you must have
from these adventures you had. What a great sport. Maybe
in my next life I'll be able to indulge it more!! or else indulge
some next-generation rush...
Like: "reserve rides" :)
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WBraun
climber
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Mike L -- "I’d say that everyone is locked in a box of their own making."
Everyone is another absolute. Most modern academics believe they are not in a locked box. They actually believe they can "think" their way out on their own or thru the material scientific method.
Therefore since we are in a locked box we'll never know the ONE who is outside of the locked box who is absolutely free from all material entanglements.
Thus real knowledge always descends, for how can one in a locked box gain knowledge from outside without the ONE who is free from that locked box.
Now, .... unlike the foolish modern scientists who unknowingly are also in the locked box waste everyone's time and money
using the defective ascension method that is masqueraded as the defacto authorized method for gaining knowledge from outside of the locked box.
There is an absolute test for the ONE who is free from the locked box, just as the modern scientist test their own disciplic succession ......
Larry .... I know the frog in the well story very well and know who the original author is .....
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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"we are here, having a little fun... The politard threads are a different matter."
For the record, I don't agree with jgill.
I think this thread makes a mockery of any serious mind brain behavior and belief discussion. This thread is chock-full of woo, chock-full of enabling, chock-full of ignorant hauteur and chock-full of (relentless contrarian) postmodernist nonsense.
Really the only positive from my point of view is a daily reminder that there is a lot of human personality in the world that is shockingly divergent both from mine and from the latest science. (So beware.)
unlike the foolish modern scientists...
Many times I am left wondering where are the real "science types" not just in brain science or psychology but in general science too - to countervail the hijackers here. Is the percentage really that low in the climbing world? But maybe it is just here at ST, we can hope...
Here at ST, this thread re mind-brain-behavior is no more elevated or reflective of serious thoughtful discussion than the numerous climate change or politard theads. Imo.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Larry .... I know the frog in the well story very well and know who the original author is
A possible next step is to talk about the limitations of the swan's ocean frame.
Both the frog and the swan are seers opened up and closed by their own experiences and frames - the well and the ocean.
What they are doing is immanently anchored though - there is no promised transcendent land of happiness and honey...
PS: "The frog in the well story", arrogance and ridicule are close friends on this thread...
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 6, 2017 - 12:52pm PT
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First thing I need to do here is to apologize to the group for the mean-spiritedness and snarky language in my last post.
For over a week now I have lost my composure due to having my two daughters (one a pediatrician and the other a petro engineer) marooned in Venezuela as it melts down and me able to do little about it but send money. I knew even as I was writing out that post I was in a bad mental space so that is all on me. My bad. I apologize to Ed, who I have always respected, and to the rest of the people on this thread.
This conversation can only cover ground so long as we avoid what I just did, stirring the pot instead of seeking to understand, ramroding instead of settling down and looking for insights.
I look forward to following this conversation in a more civil and balanced way. I wasn't fighting anyone but my own fear and frustrations and none of that belonged on this thread.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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You've actually done a great job of carrying this discussion, Largo, in my humble opinion.
Life isn't easy.
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WBraun
climber
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Relax John we all love you ......
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Sheer horror, indeed.
Tough take-away.
Please do not be discouraged, human designated larryhorton. The odor of approbation around your words does not interfere with my mechanism. I take your drift.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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When I read some of the distortions that come out of mouths here, I hear, along with the entrapped soul, the sound of the gates of Dachau slamming shut behind its back. Sheer horror, indeed
Many times I am left wondering where are the real "science types" not just in brain science or psychology but in general science too - to countervail the hijackers here
You two seem to have a lot in common.
------------------
Sorry to hear of your daughter's travails, John. It must be tough to deal with all that from a distance. Hang in there, old friend.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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certainly hope the best for your daughters,
I'm sure it must be a very harrowing time for you.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Hang in there Largo!
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Everything will be fine, John. This you really know.
Base: . . . more aware than normal. That feeling is what I have chased most of my life. That awareness.
:-)
Yeah, dude. It’s even what’s taken us into combat zones to find. Wouldn’t you say there is an addiction to feeling an experience there? Even in spiritualism. Everywhere.
We are all the same, and we are all different.
Werner: . . . using the defective ascension method that is masqueraded as the defacto authorized method for gaining knowledge from outside of the locked box.
I actually get that.
I’d refer to so many different masters. I dunno. It’s a tricky thing. You know that you know that you don’t know. At the end of the day, you feel your way to awareness. On the one hand, it’s not a big thing, but it sort of is. It’s subtle, and it’s world- and universe-changing. One sees the very same things completely differently, and yet the same. It’s a very subtle affair. I suppose it might be like changing careers. The world is the same—but it’s not.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 7, 2017 - 03:13pm PT
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bmHL1sbntw
This is a long but rich conversation between Sam Harris and David Chalmers on consciousness where many of the flashpoints are broached. Both of these guys are well steeped in the study of mind from both scientific and philosophical vantages. What's refreshing is that they both have some separation from their own views enough to take other perspectives seriously. Most views actually have some if not a lot of pertinent information, IME. For example, for me, Strong AI has mistaken processing, functionality and content for sentience, without providing any rationale for doing so. Yet AI offers many insights on modeling and so forth.
Anyhow, here's Sam and David.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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http://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/06/science/octopus-squid-intelligence-rna-editing.html
http://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(17)30344-6
Trade-off between Transcriptome Plasticity and Genome Evolution in Cephalopods
Noa Liscovitch-Brauer, Shahar Alon, Hagit T. Porath, Boaz Elstein, Ron Unger, Tamar Ziv, Arie Admon, Erez Y. Levanon, Joshua J.C. Rosenthal
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Cephalopods are diverse and can be divided into the behaviorally complex coleoids, consisting of squid, cuttlefish, and octopus, and the more primitive nautiloids. In this paper we show that in neural transcriptomes extensive A-to-I RNA editing is observed in the behaviorally complex coleoid cephalopods but not in nautilus. The edited transcripts are translated into protein isoforms with modified functional properties. By comparing editing across coleoid taxa, we found that, unlike the case for mammals, many sites are highly conserved across the lineage and undergo positive selection, resulting in a sizable slow-down of coleoid genome evolution.
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Based on these data from Kᵥ2 orthologs, and the fact that editing is exceptionally abundant in ion channels and proteins involved in synaptic vesicle release and recycling, the overall influence of RNA editing on neurophysiology is likely profound and complex.
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Among invertebrates, the nervous system of coleoids is uniquely large and complex. For example, with half a billion neurons, Octopus vulgaris has ∼5 times the number of a mouse (Young, 1971). Coleoids have brain lobes dedicated to learning and memory (Hochner et al., 2003, Shomrat et al., 2008, Shomrat et al., 2015, Young, 1961) and exhibit a range of complex and plastic behaviors. Nautiloid brains are simpler, containing fewer neurons, and lack specific lobes dedicated to learning and memory (Young, 1965). The association of massive recoding with the nervous system, and the fact that it is unique to the coleoids and not observed in nautilus, hint at its relationship with the exceptional behavioral sophistication of the coleiods. This idea is reinforced by the high density of editing in transcripts that encode proteins directly involved in excitability.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Look at the political and religion vs. science threads. They are telling us quite a bit about what mind is. Pay attention.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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What Ed said is consistent with one of the themes in Harari's, Homo Deus. He suggests that human consciousness is just one of many -- perhaps there is an infinite number of ways in which consciousness can manifest itself. Many species of animals obviously possess some form of it.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 7, 2017 - 06:59pm PT
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For me, consciousness is a composite phenomenon arising at the confluence of awareness and mind, mind being the multi-layers and step-functioning mechanical brain. Awareness is the same phenomenon in whatever living creature that has it. The quality and amplitude of mind is relative to brain and nervous system robustness. A more robust brain can generate more nuanced content to awareness resulting in a richer experiential life.
The only fundamental difference between us and the octopus is our respective brains and nervous systems. Awareness itself remains the same across the board, so to speak.
I have found this is the only model I've tried on for size that does not have to appeal to magic or crazy feeling (to me) categorical errors, as well as getting mired in content - whether it's illusory, archetypal, whether qualia is "real" and all the rest which seems to leave us spinning in place.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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A thought experiment on awareness:
A human egg is fertilized by a human sperm in vitro. The developing embryo is kept in what could be described as an isolation tank: no light, no sound, no sensory stimulation of any kind.
What kind of awareness would the embryo have? If it was deprived of all "content", that is?
Aside from the inhumanity of the scenario, it would be impossible, also, because even if muscle relaxants were used to prevent movement, there would have to be some mechanical stimulation as long as blood was being pumped through the circulatory system.
Awareness in the total absence of any content would be fantastically difficult to achieve.
It seems to me that awareness is, in biological terms, all about looking for and acting on messages from the environment.
Of course people can train themselves to ignore messages from the environment, and that is a weird and wonderful human capacity that other animals probably do not indulge in when awake.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Your position seems a bit more reasonable than before, JL. There is that peculiar distinction between non-conscious awareness and conscious awareness that experimentation has shown. But that's probably of little importance. Equating mind with mechanical functioning among brain layers is a big step.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Last night I watched much of the latest movie production of "Robocop". This is actually a very good film with some strong actors and well-written script. At one point the lead scientist (Gary Oldman) is telling his boss (Michael Keaton) that the cyborg is controlled by the human's brain under normal conditions, but when extremely fast and accurate decisions must be made the software embodied in the brain takes over, giving Robocop lightning fast reactions - but part of the software package also makes the human think he is making the decisions.
Sound familiar?
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