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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jul 27, 2011 - 04:34pm PT
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"Some guys drilled a big bolt and hook ladder up a horrible line..."
Whoah, whoah, WHOAH. You gotta be sh|ttin' me.
How are fifty-foot falls, dislocated shoulders, and firsthand observations to the contrary in any way consistent with this formerly accepted "truth"?
Coz, do you really still believe WoS is a drilled bolt and hook ladder? Please tell me you're just yanking my zipline.
[You can say what you want about the line, however. No argument there.]
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Jul 27, 2011 - 04:35pm PT
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This thread is like when you're out walking your dog for miles and miles and he keeps on pissing on every tree or fire hydrant he comes across! He never runs out of piss!
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
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Jul 27, 2011 - 04:37pm PT
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The morbid curiousity this thread creates is beyond the pale.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 27, 2011 - 04:43pm PT
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This kind of thread is the main kind of on-topic thread that has legs and examines ourselves and serious aspects of ourselves and our sport's history.
Don't like it? I'll tell some some of my political beefs...
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Rudder
Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
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Jul 27, 2011 - 04:46pm PT
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Some guys drilled a big bolt and hook ladder up a horrible line, and somebody crapped on their ropes.
From my arm chair that's what I've always thought, but have posted a bit less direct. I've said I just can't see where it is such classic climbing that it's just a "must do". Best case scenario it still qualifies as a manufactured climb as it is all hooking... so the manufacturing is how many hooks between how risky of fixed protection. That's something you make up, not something that is there. I'm sure the FA team knew they couldn't get away with installing a solid bolt every 15' and hook inbetween all the way to the top. They had to manufacture the risk by way of the type of fixed protection they used to make the route have some kind of merit... at least to themselves. Now this is all conjecture, but what are discussion forums for? lol
All I can say is who cares?
Yeah, maybe no one should now. But, I believe the line had to be contested at the time it went up. A "big bolt and hook ladder up a horrible line" as you call it... next to absolutely all world classic climbs in an all world classic place... just had to be questioned. Just as many other dubious and otherwise curious climbs had been before and even new ones are today. Noticed I said "questioned"... there are no P's in questioned... so no poop... monkeys throw poop, we're suppose to have evolved to a higher sophistication level than that... or at least that's what Richard Dawkins said.
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Rudder
Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
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Jul 27, 2011 - 04:50pm PT
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This thread is like when you're out walking your dog for miles and miles and he keeps on pissing on every tree or fire hydrant he comes across! He never runs out of piss!
Pretty much. lol
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Rudder
Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
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Jul 27, 2011 - 04:51pm PT
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This kind of thread is the main kind of on-topic thread that has legs and examines ourselves and serious aspects of ourselves and our sport's history.
Absolutely agree.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jul 27, 2011 - 04:52pm PT
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I know who all three are, I talked to them the morning after the poop.
All I can say is who cares? Some guys drilled a big bolt and hook ladder up a horrible line, and somebody crapped on their ropes.
Much ado about nothing!
Saying "drilled" instead of "hooked" continues the controversy. There were more hook placements than holes and supposedly lower holes per foot climbed than other climbs like SOD. Many people might think it's a horrible line (A&K are the ones best qualified to make that call), but for someone into difficult hooking they may think it's great.
Edit to add: I like steep, well featured free lines a lot more than free slab routes, but I still enjoy slab and see how that could be someone's forte and they like it more than crack/steep face. I imagine it's the same with WoS, they simply liked the low angle hooking, to see what could hold. The appeal doesn't seem all that different from aiding fragile features, or incipient seams.
Yes to most of us there are fare more interesting and important routes. But the crapping on their rope (and even more so the crapping on their reputations) is what makes this story interesting. Until the poopers are heard from or at least publicly outed this story will not go away, even when the SA details are known. The poopers helped create an atmosphere of persecution and since Richard and Mark didn't back down and their antagonists haven't let up this story will go on. The conflict is still there and that's what drives an interesting story.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Jul 27, 2011 - 05:06pm PT
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This kind of thread is the main kind of on-topic thread that has legs and examines ourselves and serious aspects of ourselves and our sport's history.
This was true for about the first gazillon posts. Now it's just a circular exercise: the same folks rephrasing what they've already written over and over and over.
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jul 27, 2011 - 05:08pm PT
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It takes courage to do hard run out climbs, free solo, etc. But sometimes it takes more to publicly apologize for bad behavior.
No matter how strongly one feels that a certain ethical standard or tradition has been violated, one still needs to listen to the other side with courtesy and respect.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
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Jul 27, 2011 - 05:08pm PT
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Then the anwer to the OP's question is: "Yes, WOS has seen a second ascent"
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Captain...or Skully
climber
or some such
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Jul 27, 2011 - 06:20pm PT
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Oh, there's no shortage of red mites.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Jul 27, 2011 - 06:21pm PT
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Oh, sorry Captain. As deleted previously-
Have you folks read the book Wings of Steel? Good stuff. I think the biggest losers in all of this were the red mites.
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Impaler
Gym climber
Vancouver
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Jul 27, 2011 - 06:28pm PT
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If only Richard and Mark had packed umbrellas, you people would have nothing to talk about.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jul 27, 2011 - 06:51pm PT
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Coz. It says a lot about your personal charecter that you do not think the shitting and bullying incident was any big deal...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 27, 2011 - 07:08pm PT
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Rudder writes
....I've said I just can't see where it is such classic climbing that it's just a "must do". Best case scenario it still qualifies as a manufactured climb as it is all hooking... so the manufacturing is how many hooks between how risky of fixed protection. That's something you make up, not something that is there... .
Hmmm... Maybe it's more like that controversial "Hall of Mirrors" than I thought.
After all, this is sort of the difference between crack and slab lines. Isn't a slab that you can smear or crimp or hook sort of a natural line too in a way. It can be safer or more dangerous than a crack, depending on how you bolt it because the pro isn't a crack, where you protect wherever you like.
It IS something that is "There" you can't hook up for dozens or hundreds of feet just anywhere on El Cap.
Looks to me like they didn't take the chicken way up there. Let's hear what Ammon has to say about it but it's sounding to me like there was just a bias against climbing protected by bolts, whether free or aid, even if it was sporty (unless Bachar put it up)
Otherwise why? Nobody seemed to whine about the PO or Mescalito with miles of heads or some Eric Kohl routes with worlds of holes? The Insider cool guy versus Jesus Geeks from elsewhere difference?
Peace
Karl
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jul 27, 2011 - 07:09pm PT
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NEWS FLASH:
Rumour has it that I have spies en route to WoS, looking for secret evidence, and taking pictures.
Who could they be? What could they be looking for? Why would they want to go?
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Prod
Trad climber
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Jul 27, 2011 - 07:29pm PT
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Goddammit Pete, who is doing what?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jul 27, 2011 - 07:31pm PT
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It is a stealth mission. Diabolical, eh?
I could give a [HINT], for the right price. [beer] Unlike a certain Russ Walling, who talks the talk, but won't say one useful word!
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Rudder
Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
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Jul 27, 2011 - 07:41pm PT
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After all, this is sort of the difference between crack and slab lines. Isn't a slab that you can smear or crimp or hook sort of a natural line too in a way. It can be safer or more dangerous than a crack, depending on how you bolt it because the pro isn't a crack, where you protect wherever you like.
Hi Karl!
Okay, let's say there is some great free climbing slab, or face climbing wall however steep, without natural protection... the FAs can either make it a sport route (bolts so close together that the only worry is the climbing), or Trad bolted from G-X, etc. Irregardless the bolts are there merely to protect the great climbing. You're on the route for the climbing. OTOH, if the great climbing is not there but you still want to put up a route... you make the protection the route, rather than just for the protection of the route (e.g. hook a little ways to a rivet, a long ways to a bolt, etc.). You may end up showing you can do something really hard... a fixed protection route, possibly lacking in esthetics... but then you still have to question it due to what it might lead to. Fixed protection is controversial. Whatever side of the fence you're on I don't think any of us want fixed protection =everywhere=. Would have been fun to see what would have happened if people would have reacted to the FAs the way I describe in the left half of the WOS flow chart I made. ;)
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