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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 14, 2014 - 10:11am PT
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Seems like efficiency in electrical transmission has huge potential gains.
the lack of change in the efficiencies over the past 60 years was surprising to me... and somewhat discouraging.
My guess is that there will be no "magic bullet" to slay the efficiency issue. Room temperature superconductors are in the league with fusion power... research projects that are still dealing with our lack of understanding on how to move the basic concept to a technological solution.
Maybe it will happen, but no one can point to how it will happen.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 14, 2014 - 10:54am PT
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Agreed. Ed, great post.
It would be great to see percentages calculated in the energy flow charts. I see I can do a rough calc, the chart says ~98 Quads to about 40 Quads of electrical generation.
Of prime concern is how to break the necessarily diurnal character of solar power.
That electricity is flighty stuff, it don't like to be kept in a box.
The real question is why the fossil fuel costs are so low. As has been discussed endlessly in this sprawling thread, it is because the full costs of fossil fuel use is not being recovered, that is, the costs associated with the climate change it creates.
True, the cost of using fossil fuels includes AWG, but we need to take the cost of this even farther--to include the "down river" costs, whether it be the sludge lakes left behind from the production, or the used oils.
And this applies to all our goods. The production of solar cells is not free from pollution, and if you look at large-scale production of PV cells (including the costs of batteries and so), you see another cost of solar as well.
I love the wood analogy. Clearly, we're using a line of credit when it comes to making use of the highly-concentrated energy packet that is fossil fuels. There are only so many credits on that line, and we're starting to see dust at the bottom of the wallet. To top if off, we're only just starting to pay down the interest on the principal.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Jun 14, 2014 - 02:52pm PT
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Yeah old man, good post, but there is some indications that methane is abiotic and replenishes crustal deposits from deep in the mantle. What we need is an all of the above strategy and a determination to put the scientific man power into truly viable replacements, not because their are additional costs to carbon because of CAGW(the biggest crock of shet, overblown, pseudo scientific, outright scam in recent history), but rather, as Ed says, the easily gotten petroleum is near exhaustion and the cost curve in the near future will soar to uneconomic levels, not to mention movement of the crustal surface of monumental proportions.
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JonA
Trad climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Jun 14, 2014 - 03:59pm PT
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I'm not so much a climate change skeptic as I am a climate skeptic. I believe that weather is all just an enormous hoax perpetuated by the meteorology industry in order to sell Doppler radars.
We might think we observe 'weather' phenomena like cold or rain, but in reality all 'weather' on earth is always 72 degrees and sunny whether you are on the equator or the north pole. I don't know how they do it...something to do with contrails and flouride in the water. Hey, if they can fake the moon landing then they can fake this.
I'd like to go public with my acusations but I'm scared. A bunch of scientists were about to go public back in August of 2005 in New Orleans and look what happened to them. I think spreading the truth one Internet forum at a time is the correct approach. Stay strong my fellow disbelievers!
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Jun 14, 2014 - 04:02pm PT
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Yes ,Ed ,good post.
I FIRMLY disagree. Go figure.
Meanwhile,I get paid for my contribution to the grid. And this will continue until I will not not be able to maintain ,or die.
While I agree that the grid may not be able to handle large solar operations,Individuals,on a smaller scale can and do.
I have bought new property and I am getting ready to build a small house totally off the grid.
Not for the reasons one would believe,utilities would cost an arm and a leg to bring back to this property.I am left with few options in this regard.
edit;just so you know ,the system I use was paid for ,completely,8 years ago.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 14, 2014 - 05:29pm PT
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wilbeer
I think that subsidizing PV systems is a good way to see if the industry can realize the "economies of scale" and bring the cost down on the power. We all pay for the subsides but those sorts of experiments are uniquely the domain of the government exploring alternatives. Giving industry the incentives to produce by tipping the market playing field.
rick complains about climate science, his point about abiotic generation brings up a speculation more than 40 years old on where "fossil" fuels come from, a speculation that has not produced much in the way of hard science.
Even if methane is cracked into oils, the rate at which it happens is slow enough not to replenish the reserves. At some point once the reserves are used up, we will not be able to wait for the putative abiotic process to supply us with replacement.
Similarly, the Oglala aquifer is replenished, but slowly compared to our pumping out... in the end we use it all up.
Similarly for the fish in the sea, which also replenish naturally, except for the fact that we harvest it through fishing faster than the fish have time to reproduce.
rick things will not go back to the way they were without us, humans, radically altering our behavior. I know you don't want to hear that, that you don't believe that, but you have intentionally blinded yourself to that...
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Jun 14, 2014 - 05:57pm PT
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Here in New York ,the state will subsidise homeowners and light commercial properties to the tune of 50% of initial purchase of solar[not maintenance],more limited with wind[windmills need permits].As long as these systems are designed to sustain the property and its consumption,+15%.
In other words enough to power yourself and contribute to the grid.Literally powering your neighbors.
It is hugely on the rise as solar just keeps decreasing in price.
Are these subsides working?
Well ,we do not burn coal here,nor NG in our powerplants.Yes we have Nuclear,but much more Hydro.The point being,even with an antique grid we are improving our energy sources.Not just green ,but cleaner.
I would love to see how large scale subsidizing in renewables would go and I figure ,around here,We may find out.
While I think the "Economies of Scale" is a challenge to the industry of solar and its infrastructure.The combination of all renewables, toghether, is the key to our country and worlds sustainability.
Edit;No Subsides for off the grid ,battery systems.So I lose out.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 14, 2014 - 06:02pm PT
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in 2013 the combination of solar, hydro, wind, geothermal and biomass was 9.2 Quads, from a total of 97.3 Quads for all sources,
alternatives are less than 10% of the total
it is a small part of the energy picture, and it is not at all clear how it scales.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Jun 14, 2014 - 06:11pm PT
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Exactly why it is the next "growth"industry.
And one that could possibly mitigate largely.
Have a Great weekend.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jun 14, 2014 - 07:29pm PT
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Rick S said,
Yeah old man, good post, but there is some indications that methane is abiotic and replenishes crustal deposits from deep in the mantle
This is total horsesh#t. Sorry to be so blunt, but only a few odd ducks put forth that theory, which has shown to be false. There is certainly no replenishing of existing oil and gas fields. Those fields were sourced by carbon rich source rocks in a certain temperature pressure window.
This is petroleum geology 101.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Jun 14, 2014 - 09:07pm PT
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Trolling for Base! Base where are you?
How went the well(s) in Kansas Base? Were they laterals, Fracked, is your percentage of royalties increasing your wealth or is loss of precious time diluting your average lifetime salary?
Anyway guys I didn't mean all petrochemicals, or even all gas is abiotic, rather that their is some indication that methane is present in, and being created through chemical (not biological} processes deep in the earths interior and finds its way upwards into some of the same traps as the biologically produced goods. If you have a problem with that please explain the satellites of the gas giants awash in methane.
Yes Ed, we do have to change our usage habits. We need to find sources, or processes, of even more energy dense content than fossil fuels. Just as over a hundred years ago we transitioned from whale oil and steam engines to electricity and internal combustion it is time we find the next great step in the ongoing conquest of our local solar neighborhood. Without this step we will not be able to sustain the legions of scientists producing reams of papers nobody will ever read, including the pal reviewers. The more optimistic petro industry sources say we have 100 years.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Jun 15, 2014 - 10:28am PT
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Thanks for bringing this to my attention Bruce. I have no problems with the content of his speech. I do have a problem in that his actions never seem to jive with his rhetoric. His ideology, and the required pandering to his base, does not allow for a healthy American, or global, society or economy, indeed his course is one of accentuating divisions in our culture to the point of creation of a new tower of babel syndrome. Just look here in this tiny microcosm for ample evidence of artificial cultural wedges.
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Flip Flop
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Jun 15, 2014 - 11:08am PT
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Bruce,
I've heard it called the Authority Trap. I see it here a lot. It makes sense that climbers are used to trusting their own judgement.
I really enjoyed the book "Dancing Naked in the Mind Field" by the Nobel prize winner Kary Mullis. He made an important contribution in mapping the human genome. He went on to write his ( somewhat kooky) book espousing Aids denial, climate change denial and promoting Astrology.
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Flip Flop
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Jun 15, 2014 - 12:58pm PT
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He admits that his Nobel prize was a bit of luck. He doesn't take his own ideas too seriously and he is in a haven of new age pseudo-intellectuals.
I was hanging with a pro snowboarder who thought that he would be a qualified mountain guide. I asked if he was proficient with rock climbing, rope work, rescue, wilderness medicine, avalanches , mountaineering or wilderness leadership and he said that those were his only shortcomings;)
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jun 15, 2014 - 04:55pm PT
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Sorry to be so crude, Rick. The whole abiotic theory of oil and gas generation is sort of like a UFO cult invading petroleum geology. The most common way I hear of it is through statements by a few fringe characters. It isn't taken seriously in any exploration shop that I know of.
The generation of oil and gas from organic rich shales has many decades of study behind it.
The high TOC shales are the specific shales that are being horizontally drilled and then fracked right now. Although the shales cover very large areas, they are only prospective when they have been heated to a certain point. You can even type oils back to a specific source rock via geochemistry.
Yes, methane and CO2 both occur deep in the crust, but so far there hasn't been a single commercial well. Only a little puff of gas. One of the problems is that rocks of this type; intrusive igneous rocks such as granite or diorite have little pore space. Therefore they have no reservoir volume to speak of. You do get fracture porosity, but it generally has low storage volume.
In other words, despite attempts to produce abiotic methane, nothing even remotely commercial has been found to my knowledge.
oops. I realized that this is the dreaded Climate thread. Yikes! I flee the low state of discourse here.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 17, 2014 - 07:53am PT
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Economic Models Fail Test of Climate Emergency
New research shows that assessments of financial costs of global warming are not adequately calculating damages that science predicts
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2014/06/17-0
For example, the standard model implausibly suggests that a loss of global GDP of 50 percent would only result after a rise in global average temperature of 18 centigrade degrees, even though such warming would likely "render the Earth uninhabitable for most species, including humans."
The new model, according to the report, accounts for "the possibility that such damage could occur at much lower levels of global warming. Standard economic models rule out the possibility that global warming of 5 or 6 degrees above pre-industrial levels could cause catastrophic damages, even though such temperatures have not occurred on Earth for tens of millions of years."
Driving home the study's potential and desired impact, Professor Stern said: “It is extremely important to understand the severe limitations of standard economic models, such as those cited in the IPCC report, which have made assumptions that simply do not reflect current knowledge about climate change and its potential impacts on the economy. I hope our paper will prompt other economists to strive for much better models which will help policy-makers and the public to recognize the immensity the potential risks of unmanaged climate change. Models that assume that catastrophic damages are not possible fail to take account of the magnitude of the issues and the implications of the science.”
Quite the opposite of what Sketch calls the over-sensationalization of climate change by the MSM.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jun 18, 2014 - 11:49am PT
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They're the kind of people that would lie about first ascents.
Wow. That's a low blow, even for this thread!
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dave729
Trad climber
Western America
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Jun 18, 2014 - 08:14pm PT
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Completely obvious that man made global warming is a complete hoax.
The coming ice age due to natural solar variation is a real task for humanity
to solve. Pushing more C02 into the atmoshpere might tame this certain
catastrophe. All those who are in denial should be silenced one way or another.
http://www.weather.com/safety/winter/montana-snow-june-20140616
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