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east side underground
Trad climber
crowley ca
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Apr 15, 2008 - 10:23am PT
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doug what happened? Don't you guys have anything better to do? Can't you guys leave one stone unturned? especially one as special as HALF DOME! Climbers are as bad as 4-wheelers.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 15, 2008 - 10:30am PT
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over 2000 no problem. Assuming the second ascent tr get's posted here.
Peace
Karl
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Apr 15, 2008 - 11:06am PT
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Karl - Second ascent? It never had a first "ASCENT".... like coz said.
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ChrisW
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Apr 15, 2008 - 11:57am PT
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This is my first post. I have no opinion because i never have been up there...........
Holy COW!!!! those are some Bitchin photos!!!!!
Hey Deuce, You should get in Shape come back to the valley and Fire what route you want up there.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho
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Apr 15, 2008 - 12:15pm PT
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It never had a FA but it'll prolly have a SA. Which will be the FA. How paradoxical.
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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Apr 15, 2008 - 12:26pm PT
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Oh come on AID is AID especially (I would think) to a free climber of Sean's caliber. You can do dirty AID or you can do clean Aid or clean, smart, calculated Aid (preinspection/rap bolting). It just seems like the end result is better in how the route was left behind. They did an ascent using aid and free climbing. Maybe the aid method they chose was to avoid a lot of dirty aid on the route (like bolt ladders). I don't think its okay to run around and rap bolt all over the place just stabbing bolts everywhere. Like moss hog said up thread "(e.g. by utilizing acquired knowledge to place fixed protection more efficiently)."
Blair..
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ChrisW
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Apr 15, 2008 - 12:47pm PT
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20 to 30 feet between bolts on a hard 5.11 slab is pretty sporty. Falling 40 feet on a slab, could have ugly results. So, is Growing up a pussy route???
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 15, 2008 - 01:22pm PT
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Bachar wrote
"Karl - Second ascent? It never had a first "ASCENT".... like coz said."
Well there are levels of "ascent" aren't there. For example, when Coz climbed the upper section of Southern Belle, he jugged past the crux pitches if I understand correctly. Also not as ascent or just another '*' in the footnotes?
Peace
Karl
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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Apr 15, 2008 - 01:55pm PT
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YA! and what is this all about?
Something stinks!
Is there somthing the world of climbing should know here? Or is this just somthing to stir it up.
How PURE is the old school?
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
WTF!
Werner wrote:
"Huh?
This is a mind blower. That Deucey document that Bachar authored. I know way too much, much more than the tip of the iceberg that's been revealed here. Much more than I even want to know.
It's scary, and too bad I can't say.
If you all really knew, what's going on.
Maybe on the guys deathbed it'll be all revealed."
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 15, 2008 - 03:23pm PT
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Karl,
> Well there are levels of "ascent" aren't there. For example, when Coz climbed the upper section of Southern Belle, he jugged past the crux pitches if I understand correctly. Also not as ascent or just another '*' in the footnotes?
If you start at the bottom and end at the top, it's an ascent. If you use fixed lines (established from the bottom) like on the FFA of Southern Belle, the qualifier is "sieged" (vs. "continuous"). So I agree there are different levels of ascent. If you rappel in to put in the pro, clean or preinspect, then you no longer started from the bottom. I would say you could still ascend the route, and would be the first person to do it, but the route was not established on ascent, so it does not fit the classic definition of a "first ascent". Guidebook authors usually do not make a distinction between the two these days (partly due to space constraints?), except maybe at Pinnacles and Tuolumne, but they are all called first ascents, just with qualifiers.
I asked earlier if Sean or Doug could tell me if Growing Up has an ascent from bottom to top yet. They didn't respond yet, but that question may have been buried by other posts. It wasn't clear from the article if the upper slab was redpointed by rapping in from above or approached from the lower pitches. I suppose having such a complete ascent is a technicality that may not be of interest to the FA team at some point. Certainly a lot of routes on my "Long Hard and Free" page have been ascended with different styles and different definitions of free climbing. Big long routes like those are challenging in many ways and people can choose their own type of style which will give them some chance of getting up the route and still be quite challenged along the way. On the web page, there is plenty of space to include those details.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 15, 2008 - 03:35pm PT
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All good points Clint.
We know a lot about the style of Sean's ascent but don't know if it's had a continuous ascent yet. Guess Potter had the first continuous ascent of Southern Belle.
Some of the Southern Belle tactics aren't clear to me either, but I should probably go back and see if they have been covered. I know much of the climb was aided before it was freed. Were those pitches top-roped or pre-protected after being aided. This is probably better style than rap-bolting but there's no need for rap-bolting with the luxury of a crack. I mean, if we're really going to judge, and even some say, "remove" based on style and not stone damage, we should see the strengths and flaws in the routes we're holding up as sacred.
Peace
Karl
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 15, 2008 - 03:47pm PT
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All my long free routes were totally free and pure.....
except the brief moments where my foot accidentally slipped into a sling or my hand got caught in the biner for a moment when I clipped........
There have been climbs when my foot slipped into a sling a number of times....my buddy calls them portable footholds!
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 15, 2008 - 04:30pm PT
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I think almost all of Southern Belle was freed on the FA. The only aid section not originally freed I can find from the magazine articles was the start of the 4th pitch - a short tricky section. Maybe some of p5 was aided originally since it is described as a crack where thin pins. And it looks like there was originally a pendulum on p6.
[Edit: see coz's post below - there was lots of aid on the FA to be freed]
The rest if it is 99% slab/face, and they were into making a very bold route (as they compared it with the Bachar-Yerian in the FFA article), so I doubt any pro was added to those slab pitches above p5. It would be nice to see a more complete story of the FA and FFA of the route (maybe one exists and I have not found it).
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climbera5
Trad climber
Sacramento
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Apr 15, 2008 - 05:52pm PT
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Not to deviate from the recent discussions regarding SB but the earlier posts airing differences of opinion and recounting of history remind me of Bob Dole's quote "You don't want to get in a wrestling match with a pig. You both get dirty, and the pig likes it."
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Apr 15, 2008 - 06:16pm PT
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Karl - The team could not "ascend" anymore so they hiked to the top and descended it in order to make the ascent they could not make? hmmmm.... a new style of ascent?
The next advancement in free climbing will be "leading on a top-rope"....
Rope companies will soon make invisible ropes (Emperor's New Ropes) so that they won't show up in the photos of climbers doing bold new first ascents on the lead. The standards will soar even further....
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east side underground
Trad climber
crowley ca
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Apr 15, 2008 - 10:18pm PT
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I think we should matrix bolt( one bolt per every 5 sq ft ?) all the major formations in yosemite. Then we could have routes everywhere and you could have fun either climbing the routes from the bottom up or from the top down. We could even have routes that are top down only! It could be the new craze! Any climber could down lead El Cap routes! Also it would eliminate the need for first ascents and the troubling problems of ethics or style.
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Apr 16, 2008 - 01:48am PT
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Bachar is full of it.
He's been using Emperors New Ropesİ for years.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Apr 16, 2008 - 02:37am PT
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jghedge, I don't follow your assumptions.
If a route is done ground up and bolted from a ground up approach, even though the quality of the bolts is sh#t, that doesn't mean someone can't later go back and upgrade those bolts. Lots of folks do this style. And it has no impact on the style in which the FA/FFA was established.
I could be mising something on timing of when said bolts went in. That would affect the definition of the style dramatically.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Apr 16, 2008 - 03:53am PT
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jghedge, 'rap bolting' and 'replacing bad bolts after a ground up ascent' are not the same thing. When you rap bolt you have the opportunity to pre-inspect the rock and can plan the climb you want. Going ground up does not allow you to 'preview the route' and as such may result in a completely different route on the same piece of stone that might have been put up on rappel.
The argument about which style produces the best route is probably at the crux of a lot of the discussion going on in this thread. I am not going to rehash it here.
Bruce
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 16, 2008 - 10:03am PT
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Yeah Coz, I'm throwing a nice fat chunk of limbwood on the fire and handing you a cold one.
The details you've dropped are fascinating. But they're just a tease.
BTW, ran across a tidbit of bolt lore to pass on. No, NOT about whether they go in trembling or dangling. Just about quality. I've always felt sketch sbout you guys pounding in ordinary machine bolts. Dirtbag economics, for sure, I get that part. But leading the big-fall runouts on SB off of those? Huevos, man!
So my climber friend who'se a mechanical engineer (like Walt was) comes over. We're drinking Scotch and talking about this thread. He says his professor once shear tested ordianry 1/4-inch wood screws pounded into holes in concrete. They held ~1800 pounds! About the same as a quarter-inch Rawl.
Of course you guys didn't take the big whipper up there. But now I feel better about your chances of surviving it.
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