Climate Change skeptics? [ot]

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skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Jun 6, 2014 - 12:10pm PT
Nothing like the obligatory personal baggage being tossed out...... ANYWAY

There are some very interesting points coming out of this thread sometimes. The definition of the start of the Anthropocene, for instance, would depend upon what the scientific consenses is on what is considered to be a defining point in time of human behavior. The start of agriculture could be good, but hard to delineate unless there is some good chemical signature available in something like ice cores. The industrial revolution is a distinct point in time and has a chemically signature. Doesn't have to start with the first atomic explosion.


Reading Ed's post, apparently Chiloe has written texts on elemetary statistics an oft maligned and missused class of data analysis techniques (at least from my view point).






k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 6, 2014 - 01:09pm PT
Is this your own research?

Or are you just channeling the alarmists blogs?


Sketch is still at it, eh? Even after I've shown how he distorts other's statements, lies, and attacks with passive-aggressive quips.


Now, as if he has done his own research, asks Chiloe in a condescending manner if what he's writing is from his own research.


Hey Sketch, do any of the posts you make contain your own research, or are you just quoting more opinion pieces?

No need to answer, we already know. You couldn't create the graphs if Ed himself wrote the step-by-step instructions (which, BTW, he has already done so in the past).
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Jun 6, 2014 - 01:14pm PT
I can see ,under some scenarios ,where he would be highly invested in seeing that the base science of his textbooks not be undermined.

Hah! I believe that Rick can see this, on the fantasy screen playing in his head.

Coming back to reality, here's one starting place for wannabe underminers. Perhaps begin with the Gauss-Markov Theorem, that sounds communist!

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 6, 2014 - 01:27pm PT
No, not brave. Just surprised that you continue with your ways after I exposed your MO.

I look forward to more of your lies and eventual apologies.

I did apologize. It's what good folk do when they realize they are wrong.


It's more than you ever did when I pointed out your bald-face lies.




And no, I'm not going back into it with you. I'll just keep calling you on your BS.


Like just now, demanding to know if Chiloe was citing his own research when we know good and well that you can never cite your own. What's up with that?
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Jun 6, 2014 - 01:34pm PT
Why are some of you still treating these deniers as if they were rational?

It's a short break from my main job this afternoon which is necessary but dull.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Jun 6, 2014 - 06:35pm PT
I certainly cant touch Chiloe's textbook for his graphics class with a ten foot pole. But the choice of data used in the mathematical tools taught via the above displayed course book certainly is subject to critical examination, especially in graphic modeling of climate science. Data's used by the CAGW modelers is subject to selection bias, detrended, adjusted and readjusted, and in some cases outright invented to the point that any use of it by mathematical tools just results in GIGO. Im sure that is a fine textbook Chiloe and your presentation is impeccable but I don't see how this boosts your bonafides in climate science since you can't vouch for the data's certainty. Now don't you have an extensive publication list of climate change impacts on native northern coastal cultures?
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jun 6, 2014 - 06:36pm PT
well Sketch chaining the subject is pretty par for his particular course...
...he doesn't really know much about statistics (actually he's demonstrated that he doesn't have any knowledge)...

but that doesn't matter as he is only trolling, which is where he gets his jollies... I suppose he is on the same path as his avatar photo was on in the later parts of his life...


skedric's post is somewhat incoherent...

Reading Ed's post, apparently Chiloe has written texts on elemetary statistics an oft maligned and missused class of data analysis techniques (at least from my view point).


what techniques do you use for data analysis?
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jun 6, 2014 - 06:40pm PT
and rick writes:
Im sure that is a fine textbook Chiloe and your presentation is impeccable but I don't see how this boosts your bonafides in climate science since you can't vouch for the data's certainty.

if Chiloe is expert enough to write textbooks on statistical treatment of data, how is it that he doesn't have some "bonafides" in a discussion of the treatment of data, e.g. climate data?

I know you have an opinion, rick, but you couldn't claim it was based on any rigor, mathematical, statistical, logical.

But I do know you believe that you're tuned into "The Truth"
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Jun 6, 2014 - 09:55pm PT
Yes, give me all the crayons you want but it will not do any of you any good. Your minds are all lost to the hippy dipshet brainwashing. Can any of you point to definitive proof of CAGW , indisputable truth that the models are accurately mimicing climate reality, that climate can be engineered to meet acceptable IPCC standards of habitability, or even that a climate cooler than present is preferable to one on average 2c warmer. What do you guys have? If it's indisputable truth we wouldn't be having this argument-the world would be overwhelmingly united on this issue rather than becoming ever more sceptical. So idiots put away your psycho babble mumbo jumbo, your intolerance, your personal attacks and show us the indisputable truth.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jun 6, 2014 - 10:16pm PT
if it's indisputable truth

can't help you there, rick...
the only indisputable truth is your consistent argument that it is necessary.
Quite an infantile need.

The best science we have hypothesizes that human activities causing an increase in the GHG's and that the climate is observed to have responded in a manner consistent with that hypothesis.

No other hypothesis comes close to explaining the observations.

But it is not "indisputable truth,"

"It is extremely likely* that human activities caused more than half of the observed increase in global average surface temperature from 1951 to 2010"

*extremely likely: 95–100% probability

IPPC AR5 Technical Summary TS-25

you might read Chiloe's book to get some idea of what confidence levels are and how they might be defined quantitatively, except for the indisputable truth that you don't know how to do math...

rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Jun 6, 2014 - 11:08pm PT
I'm sorry Ed, but The Chief already repeatedly posted published science by many other credible scientists to show just how pathetic the CAGW case is. A convincing trouncing by almost everyones standards On this forum. Yet the proponents of this increasingly uncertain science continue to be boosters of severely economically damaging remedies of largely imagined problems.


Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jun 6, 2014 - 11:30pm PT
The Chief already repeatedly posted published science by many other credible scientists

neither he nor you have any idea of what constitutes science, let alone credible science...
but you both know that "The Truth" is...

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 7, 2014 - 07:10am PT
Say out of the water!

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2014/06/06/dont-be-fooled-by-warm-weather-lake-temps-remain-dangerously-cold/
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jun 7, 2014 - 06:45pm PT
There was an interesting article in Physical Review Letters on Friday on cosmic rays:

Physical Review Letters 112, 225001 (2014)
http://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.112.225001

Detection of Lower Tropospheric Responses to Solar Energetic Particles at Midlatitudes

K. A. Nicoll and R. G. Harrison

Solar energetic particles (SEPs) occasionally contribute additional atmospheric ionization beyond that arising from the usual galactic cosmic ray background. During an SEP event associated with a solar flare on April 11, 2013, the vertical ionization rate profile obtained using a balloon-borne detector showed enhanced ionization with a 26% increase at 20 km, over Reading, United Kingdom. Fluctuations in atmospheric electrical parameters were also detected at the surface, beneath the balloon’s trajectory. As no coincident changes in geomagnetism occurred, the electrical fluctuations are very likely to be associated with increased ionization, as observed by the balloon measurements. The lack of response of surface neutron monitors during this event indicates that energetic particles that are not detected at the surface by neutron monitors can nevertheless enter and influence the atmosphere’s weather-generating regions.



which garnered a "synopsis"

http://physics.aps.org/synopsis-for/10.1103/PhysRevLett.112.225001

This is relevant as the "natural variability" of climate is not necessarily just a stochastic process, but associated with other, as yet to be measured, processes.

One also knows that these processes are small compared to the major components of energy balance "forcings" but still relevant in terms of understanding weather in detail.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Jun 7, 2014 - 07:35pm PT
That's an interesting piece on atmospheric ionization undetected on the surface. Makes one wonder how large the flare was, whether flares are more or less common at points in the 208 year and approx. 1000 year solar cycles, what the degree of axial tilt and orbital eccentricity has to do with larger high latitudes effects where albedo changes start a cascade effect, how and where the ionization is spread around the globe, etc. It may be a small effect but makes one wonder how many small unknown effects are out there and if and how it might modulate climate here on Earth. Just gnawing at the bone old man.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jun 7, 2014 - 09:58pm PT
...makes one wonder...
indeed it does, and lots of people have, and many of them are scientists that publish and many others put it all together, and they all work out the problems and come to some rather interesting conclusions that generates more to wonder about.

rick, your problem is that you aren't really wondering, you're prevaricating... if you were truly wondering then you'd be interested in where this all has been going. And as a scientist, I'd say it isn't going anywhere near where you would like it to go.

rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Jun 7, 2014 - 11:08pm PT
Quite predictable Ed, you need not even have answered with confirmation. Never really appreciated Sagan's billions and billions thirty years ago Bruce. So why would one want to watch a remake. There is a very interesting article in the current Alaska Journal of Commerce that describes an isolated village, its partial replacement of diesel for electricity generation and space heating with use of intermittment wind power ,excess energy storage and economically effective usage, however.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jun 8, 2014 - 10:26am PT
http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/6-right-wing-lunacies-week-im-not-scientist-im-going-wage-war-science-anyway
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Jun 8, 2014 - 05:10pm PT
Bruce writes,

I've got a question for you research science professionals. Normal human impulses and foibles aside, is it accurate to say that the actual internal political mechanisms of institutional research science - publication, peer review, consensus building, community discourse etc - are by force of process ruthless in culling from the herd that which does not stack up ( incompetency, corruption), as well as egalitarian in the sense that published science is by and large judged by its scientific merit, not social status or political power?

I’m reluctant to generalize about science. It has many facets, but has well proven to be the best approach we have to learning new things about the universe. A key aspect of that, related to your question, is the basic approach of skepticism, empirical testing and improvement. The institutions are far from perfect but there’s no mistaking how well, in the long run, it proves to work. Among scientists innovation is rewarded, including the innovation of showing that earlier work does not hold to reality tests, and finding a better description or way.

Anyhow, thought of your query when I read this good post on the blog And Then There’s Physics. The blogger is a physicist himself, here writing about the recent headlines and subsequent disappointment regarding the discovery of primordial gravitational waves, a signature of the Big Bang, announced by astronomers working from South Pole observations. ATTP writes about the trajectory of that story, in which a group of scientists were (apparently) wrong and yet science worked exactly as it should to catch the problem. ATTP segues from there back to climate science.
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Jun 8, 2014 - 05:11pm PT
Well, it now seems that that was wrong. It appears that the BICEP2 team may have done their foreground correction using a figure from a conference presentation given by someone on a competing team. They didn’t – it seems – realise that the data in the figure had been smoothed so as to reduce the apparent foreground in the relevant region. It now seems that there is a good chance that their signal is simply polarization from material in our own galaxy, and not a signature of primordial gravitational waves. I don’t think this is yet certain, but it is a little disappointing if true.

There are, however, a number of interesting aspects to this issue. Firstly, noone I know of is – publicly at least – suggesting that the BICEP team did anything nefarious. They were maybe a little sloppy. Took a bit of a risk; maybe they should have waited to be more certain. However, everyone recognises that this was an extremely exciting discovery. Career defining. Furthermore, it’s a great illustration – in my view – of how science works. Despite everyone being extremely excited by this announcement, there were still people delving into the details and checking what was being presented. Within a matter of weeks, there were already hints that there might be a problem. I don’t think that the BICEP team have yet conceded that the measurement is purely foreground, but I’m sure they will if that is what the additional analysis suggests. It’s still possible, of course, that they will still have a small signal of primordial gravitational waves. So, it could still end up being an exciting discovery; just not quite as significant/robust as – at first – thought.

In a sense, this is why I get frustrated by suggestions that scientists (climate scientists in particular) are involved in some kind of conspiracy or suffering from groupthink. It’s very difficult for incorrect results to persist. Anything interesting is going to be checked by clever people who will almost certainly find a problem, if there is something to be found. I appreciate that the BICEP2 issue is only one example and we don’t yet know the final outcome, but I think it is still an illustration of the scientific process in action. There may be negative aspects to this whole issue but – from a scientific perspective – the BICEP2 announcement has done no damage. Even if we don’t actually have evidence for inflation, we’ve learned something and, presumably, understand aspects of this topic more now than we did before.
http://andthentheresphysics.wordpress.com/2014/06/07/bicep2/
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