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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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eeyonkee, I'm sad you didn't get back to me regarding Pinker's use of "free will" (in Battle of the Wills video) or else regarding alternative contextual fields or POV (besides physics and chemistry) for understanding "free will" as means to compatibilism (which you said you'd actually like to come to accept).
You're a climber so you naturally understand so-called "stepping stones" to further progress. Right? So how about "free mind" then as a stepping stone to "free will"?
http://warriorsway.com/the-ultimate-goal-a-free-mind/
Mental Training: In Search of a Free Mind
"What is a free mind? ... There’s no inner voice nagging at you..."
https://heatherclimbs.com/2017/02/20/mental-training-in-search-of-a-free-mind/
I signed a contract last year and as part of it I had to initial a section affirming that I enter said contract under my own free will (in other words, not under the coercion or influence of another).
These are your paths to being a compatibilist, it seems to me. If you want it.
That (1) there is no intelligent agent behind our volition (our will) influencing it and (2) there is no immaturity or incompetence (e.g., child or retarded person) or pathology (like a tumor) behind our volition (rendering some degree of incompetence) hindering it is of course Dennett's and Pinker's path to compatibilism.
Recall Harris's FW book and its cover. I think Dennett is spot on in that this cover - showing a puppet's strings and their handle - can be considered misleading because there is no puppeteer (iow, no intelligent agent) behind our mechanistic nature.
It seems to me, the more time one spends in these subjects and issues relating to will, incl "free will" and, yes, its varieties, the clearer it all becomes.
But remember, as you pointed out, we ARE ALL in agreement... you, me, Harris, Coyne, Dennett, Pinker, Greene, re our mechanistic will in terms of physics, chemistry, etc..
Not an easy subject, at least not early on, lol.
PS
re: "the illusion of free will"
Harris has stated, more than once, that his will doesn't feel free - that it feels caused - and therefore to his lights the expression "illusion of free will" really doesn't apply. I can totally relate to his statements in this regard because in analyzing and thinking about my own will over my lifetime I feel the same way.
Bottom line... A living thing can have an entirely mechanistic will (in terms of physics, chemistry, biology, systems engineering) and yet still be unconstrained by (in other words, free of) any number of influences or other causes. Hence, in the end... compatibilism... and compatibilists.
Welcome to the club? :)
PPS
Actually, it's all just food for thought.
If pressed, I could roll either way... either as free will denier or compatibilist...
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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The artists themselves, on the other hand, seem able to only *point* at their works as the only “true statement” that can be made.
In my experience that's not the case. Stella for example. Rarely do I go to a show or gallery without seeing an artist's statement.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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And this is where your romantic view leads us to an abandonment of responsibility a ruined planet and what the hell does it matter? Well it does matter too bad you can't see that.
it matters to us... everything else will go on whether or not it matters to us... the planet has been wrecked before, and out of that latest large wreckage we emerged.
Who gave us the responsibility? Mr. Evolution no doubt.
evolution doesn't give us anything, nor to anything else, it is just our description of the biological process.
perhaps Paul believes there is some Book which has all this assignment of responsibilities, and the answers to everything else in it... "As it is written, so shall it be..." but I don't think we need such a book. Rather, in our time we can be curious and just learn what we can about this universe.
We don't owe anything to any higher order, nor are we going to receive. We should enjoy what we have. Not wrecking the place is certainly a desire, but if we do, as we all know the road to Hell is paved with good intentions, the place will bounce back and be a wonderful, even without us around to enjoy it.
The bees will still buzz.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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What's bizarre is watching a bee push a marble around and then relating it to the cognitive abilities of a human being.
Is that what your cognitive abilities took away from the study?
Could you tell us what was learned?
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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it matters to us... everything else will go on whether or not it matters to us... the planet has been wrecked before, and out of that latest large wreckage we emerged.
I would imagine it matters to the species you eliminate along the way. You've painted yourself into a corner on this one and now you have to advocate for an abandonment of any responsibility to the planet or any real necessity to preserve your own species. Darwin is rolling in his grave. Our responsibility is to our own survival and that necessitates a certain state of nature. Destroy that state and you are destroyed.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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HFCS: . . . there is no intelligent agent behind our volition (our will) . . . .
Like in another being, somehow? How many beings do you have in your mind, anyway? How could it ever be two?
Anyway, I agree. No free will. It’s a human term and concept. Things are just not like that in my sight. You are what you see. “Will?” Not from this seat.
Paul:
Ok. I have limited experience personally with these people, but I are becoming one it seems. We see things a little differently. I appreciate your views, and equally well your writing. You are poetic and truthful (sincere).
Sycorax: So many fine writers doubled as literary critics.
Paid, right? I would venture to say that every artist has a strong view of what is artistically right and wrong. That’s the thing about passionate people. Unlike consultants who may be wrong but never in doubt, artists are always in doubt but never wrong. You can’t be wrong about expression. It is what it is, and you can't say what it is.
I didn’t know that about fine writers. I do have a degree in literature, but I’ve not heard that before. If "paid," it seems incestuous . . . and untrustworthy.
It’s always nice talking to all of you. And hearing the rest.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Whirlpool in the Styx
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Prospect and protection.
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WBraun
climber
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If I act only one sided, that means I have no free will.
Unless there is the chance of doing right or wrong, there is no question of free will.
One can act right or wrong.
The mental speculators will say there is no right or wrong.
If you have no free will then you are dead stone.
A stone has no free will .......
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Artists are absolutely capable of being wrong without any pretense of doubt. The miserable time I spent in the company of artists during college showed me a group of people who knew each other for the last 30 years, willing to kill each other over a $ 2500.00 grant from a municipality for public art that benefited the tourism industry.
That's a mighty big brush you paint with based on a tiny bit of anecdotal info... Everybody, why even scientists, are capable, "absolutely" of being wrong. Of course no scientist would backstab some fellow scientist in order to get a grant, as competition for grants is not an issue in science.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Science struggles to quantify the aesthetic experience. Wonder who got the grant? A declaration of cognitive equality.
Question is: if the cow believes that bull is actually real, is it?
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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The grant was awarded to the individual who was most willing to be contractually effective and not an artistic pain in the municipality's ass.
Have to agree with you there. I've always said the single most important element in the aesthetic experience is contractual effectiveness.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Paul, I love to look at your paintings. There is a restful sense of nature in a time gone by, when the pace of life was slower.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jgill,
Thanks, and likewise. Math and art much more closely linked than most imagine.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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jstan
climber
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Really?
This is restful?
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Jim: . . . [artists] a group of people who knew each other for the last 30 years, willing to kill each other over a $ 4500.00 grant
(Hey, Jim, I was about to write something witty about my idea of academics vs. your idea of artists, but then I remembered . . . there are many parts of the world where someone would easily take your life for a quarter of that amount. The amount doesn’t to matter much.)
Duck: If you have no free will then you are dead stone.
That’s not what I see. You know, you can train to instinct, and in-the-moment, there will be no self to direct. Like I said, these things cannot be said in human terms.
Also, right and wrong are so problematical, Werner. It’s dogmatic. I see karma, learning, evolvement. Perhaps I should say that I see “involvement,” instead of “evolvement”: it’s turning things inside-out. I am that.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Also, right and wrong are so problematical, Werner. It’s dogmatic
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Good one, John.
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WBraun
climber
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You impersonalists always have so many bewildering problems ......
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