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Bushman
Social climber
The island of Tristan da Cunha
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When am I going to start to picking up my room?
When was my room ever picked up?
When will I ever stop writing/editing/deleting my posts?
When have I ever stopped writing/editing/deleting my posts?
What is my function?
What is my primary malfunction?
How do I turn it off?
How do I know if it was ever turned off?
I'm just so stoked about those guys on the Dawn Wall ascent, it's really got me in an upbeat mood. I cut loose and did a tumbling pendulum instead of lowering while cleaning the Seagull pitch back in 1984. Wasn't expecting the severity of the swing. Could of been a bad move. Never thought anyone would ever be free climbing up there.
That's some pretty amazing shit!
You may now return to your regularly scheduled program.
-bushman out
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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^^^it's easy!
it can't be the bottom-up(the unmoving elements)or the top-down(the forces that be) separately! it is the combination of the two that makes available consciousness. The lab-coats can't process information without a one or a zero
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WBraun
climber
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They will fail.
I have thoughts that no computer can ever hold ......
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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individual thoughts can be detected.
their precievedness comes after the fact. thus their living in the past. Unable to see the past, they must draw a graph to predict the future. When things are outside of the graphs, they call them anomalies or flukes. Common-sense would call them emotions.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Isn't your fear of extinction and poverty and being hungry fueling your fire to learn and question and move?
Fear of extinction, poverty, and poverty? None of the above. Between my childhood, Vietnam and climbing I should have been dead so many times it's ridiculous. So Extinction? Living at all has pretty much been gravy for several decades. Been poor, can deal. Been hungry, can deal.
None of the above has ever played a role in my drive to learn. Learning, much like my FAs, has only ever been a matter of obsession.
Do you not think there is an answer to every question?
It would be a tragically boring world if there were or if answers always came as easy as you seem to believe they do.
My abhorrence to unanswered questions percolates from the fear of getting a wrong answer!
Wrong answers are a part of any form of route-finding - fear would hardly seem to enter into it. For sure don't get into software; I can be awash in wrong answers all day long at times. It should be noted that to dare or venture, almost by definition, mean risking getting it wrong.
i'm certainly not fearful of the Truth. Searching for Truth is what brought me to the Lord! God said He created light before there was a Sun. Could that be True? Well we do have headlamps don't we? God said He created the universe in a couple days. Scientist say it happened in less then a second. He also said he put all the ingredients and "seeds" for All life into the earth, but they did not grow and flourish until He caused it to rain. Scientifically this method shows me Truth. It also shows me a conscious plan. A plan of compassion that all "things" must work together to Become! i think it adolescent to believe a chaotic universe filled with moving particles to somehow luckily combine into a Sun. And moreover combine into consciousness. .
And I that it would childish to think otherwise...
But that's just my opinion. i wouldn't teach this as the Truth even to my own child. Cause i know it aint 100% true. The story of Science changes everyday. Once science told us the earth was flat, and that the universe revolved around us. Where is that theory today? Theory of Relativity, where will that be in 200yrs?
The story of science is supposed to change everyday - it wouldn't be science it didn't. The science of astronomy developed apace from the Babylonians on until it was restrained [in the west] by biblical interpretations and edicts. Reason didn't overcome christian dogma for centuries. Likewise it has principally been biblicists who couldn't move on and drove the flat Earth theory into modern time right on into the last century.
Science isn't a big scary devil. To a hungry baby, science is a tool for scientist to create a bottle to bring the baby some milk. Compassion is providing the mother with a boob.
Science isn't a tool used for an agenda; it's a method used to discover the nature of the world around us. And among other things, the science around breast cancer is attempting to save as many of those boobs as is humanly possible.
P.S. The heart stuff, no 'science' there at all: "a tale woven from intertwining threads of pre-scientific superstition and some modern jargon and concepts." Ouch...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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As to 'souls', are you saying Bonobos are peaceful because they have souls? Or are you saying humans need souls to have ethics or treat each other fairly? I don't see where a 'soul' is necessary for either.
Then there are the questions that get raised (maybe Blue has the answers), similarly with the idea of 'universal consciousness': how does a soul find a body? At what point does a soul 'enter' a body? Do only humans have souls? What were the souls doing before humans came along? What if we never came along? What of souls then?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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As to 'souls', are you saying Bonobos are peaceful because they have souls? Or are you saying humans need souls to have ethics or treat each other fairly? I don't see where a 'soul' is necessary for either.
I'm saying Bonobos are peaceful because they have a section of DNA for affection and social bonding that chimps do not, and they live in a food rich environemnt.
Do we need souls to behave fairly and ethically?
Some people think they don't, some think they do. Expectations are the important thing it seems. Can the majority of people live peacefully, ethically, fairly if they have no expectation of a soul or justice after death? Perhaps, perhaps not. A food and energy surplus would certainly help.
how does a soul find a body? At what point does a soul 'enter' a body? Do only humans have souls? What were the souls doing before humans came along? What if we never came along? What of souls then?
There are plenty of answers, the most well developed I've found being from the Indian and Tibetan traditions. The question is are they true and what is the evidence? How do we judge a kindly compassionate being who claims to remember dying, transiting the intermediate stage and reincarnating in his/her present body? I've known several.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I'm saying Bonobos are peaceful because they have a section of DNA for affection and social bonding that chimps do not, and they live in a food rich environment.
I guess I'm not sure why you think a soul is required of us and not of Bonobos for the same behavioral outcome given similar ecological conditions.
Some people think they don't, some think they do. Expectations are the important thing it seems. Can the majority of people live peacefully, ethically, fairly if they have no expectation of a soul or justice after death? Perhaps, perhaps not.
So it's a motivator? The intent suggested there is certainly inline with what many of us believe the primary reason behind telling people they have a soul (to burn in hell or ride a merry-go-round until they get 'it' 'right'). So a soul alone really doesn't cut it so much as in tandem with an 'afterlife'? I suppose if the story was you only lived once with no afterlife, but had a soul while you were here it would be a less compelling sell.
There are plenty of answers, the most well developed I've found being from the Indian and Tibetan traditions. The question is are they true and what is the evidence? How do we judge a kindly compassionate being who claims to remember dying, transiting the intermediate stage and reincarnating in his/her present body? I've known several.
I don't judge; I just take such stories at face value as told with a contextual grain of belief systems and cultural history. I don't call it evidence, however, but rather belief.
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WBraun
climber
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there is no evidence
Aaahhhh ..... you yourself is the evidence of the existence of the soul.
When you leave your mortal gross material body it will cease to function.
You will be determined DEAD by your so called modern science.
But you are not dead ,,,,,,
You have left your gross physical material body.
Your family is now crying .......
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan, how much do you think about your own inconsistencies: you're an evolutionist (a teacher of evo no less) yet you (apparently) do not accept the evolution of mental faculties (collectively, mind) or the evolution of feelings (esp the positive ones: love, eg, compassion; the savage ones: competitivity, anger, jealousy, sure okay, they evolved, lol); you ascribe memories, thoughts, temperaments (affection, social bonding, peaceful relations) to genetics (eg a "section" of DNA) yet (apparently) at the same time to immaterial souls; you claim to follow the evidence no matter where it leads then suggest (even in the same post) we should "give in" somehow, cut our ancestral beliefs some slack, and keep open-minded - because kindly compassionate folk who claim to remember dying etc. say so. Happy New Year!
.....
New school thinking: A "soul" or "spirit" has a material basis.
I know this is true because mine does.
Still celebrating the New Year, my soul is in high spirits!
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WBraun
climber
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The soul is present in the material body as consciousness ......
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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The soul is present in the material body as consciousness ......
Now we're getting somewhere...
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Happy New Year.
Ed: at least it is good not to have been mistaken as a friend to MikeL.
There appears to be only two reasons why a person gets angry: (i) they feel their survival is somehow threatened and (ii) they feel an important sense of a lack of control in their lives (Ekman, 2007). Buddhists believe that anger is the tell-tale sign of an attraction or an aversion. One should not let their passions betray them, it’s been said. But if one kills them, then what is one left with?
People of science wish to portray themselves (and be) rational, methodical, logical, calculating, and intelligent. What is happening when they become angry? How can they be angry at all, if they follow their beliefs?
The most basic and powerful experience of truth in the world is an emotion.
Science and rationality promised putting the passions in their place. When a scientist or science-biased person becomes angry about a philosophical or scientific discussion of science’s underpinnings, its conversations, and its claims—when the conversation itself is out-of-bounds—then it is the nature of the conversation that is offensive, not the content or specifics. It is the very idea of having the conversation at all that is offensive.
I may attract more than my fair share of ire because I know a little bit about what science is supposed to be, how it works, and its day-to-day practices. I have betrayed my community in questioning its fundamentals.
My idea of research says nothing is off-limits. I see no **reason* to get or be angry in any conversation about it. I don’t understand anger in reasonable conversations. It’s just talk anyway.
Commce ci, commce ca. (Nothing, no thing, nothingness is distinguishable.)
It is also unimportant. There is no reason to get angry; I don’t want to be a part of it if I can help it.
When I’ve written that one should pay attention to experience—to what is right in front of them all the time—I did not mean the content or the context of experience. I mean experience . . . raw, pristine, without any elaboration or interpretation. When a researcher runs an experiment or investigation, what he or she sees or interprets or finds in terms of “data” are not what I’m pointing to. That’s content. I’m talking about awareness itself.
This morning while waiting in a room for my wife to get out of a minor surgery, I had nothing to do and no where to go. There was nothing for me to do but be still. There was only experience. I looked out onto a sea of pixels, sounds, feelings, and random errant thoughts zinging through what I call a mind.
This is what I mean by experience as experience. I don’t understand why folks do not apparently see essential life, “their life,” being projected every moment . . . not what the mind creates but the mind, and the space that holds the mind.
Oh, well. It’s nothing. None of it is concrete or serious.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Aaahhh
Aaahhh
Ohhhhh
Naaaaa
Aaahhh
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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http://www.theassc.org/files/assc/2271.pdf
For those who enjoy cognitive science as viewed from a computer/programming perspective, this one is worth reading. Not how he rips on Dennett's annoying smygness.
JL
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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I don't see much chance of thoughts being read by machine anytime soon. With a lot of cooperation from a subject, activity in the brain can be detected, but is looking at that activity with a machine any better than having the person tell you about it?
Often these explorations start with worthy goals, like looking for signs of consciousness in coma patients...or helping the blind to see (the premise in the video clip from Wim Wenders movie Until the End of the World). However, we all have a healthy suspicion that technology may be misused, too, especially when government gets involved, and people can screw up, too.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Soul = Personality
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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"I think we will have well constructed neural interfaces before too awful long..."
A man of faith!
"This suggests, rather strongly, that the mind IS the map and the map IS the experience and our maps all look very very similar. Its that similarity that the researchers found so remarkable."
You might have been an engineer. A bioengineer even.
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