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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:12pm PT
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...but be assured you are avoiding the root of the problem
Like a plant, this problem has many roots. They're all being discussed here.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:12pm PT
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Ignore the facts of these events and ban guns; if that is what makes you feel safe [...]
I actually don't much care about the root of the problem. We'll never fix evil, or crazy.
We can change outcomes.
Very true Dave, you can't fix those born evil or crazy. I'd wager none of the recent three in memory were either of those things one year before they snapped. Seriously. Research James Holmes, Jacob Roberts, Adam Lanza.
You can easily chemically create crazy however. Would you argue that? How many mass random killings/suicides happened 40 years ago?
You can change outcomes. True. Imagine a magical world without guns! Poof! Instead of shooting up an elementary school these formerly normal intelligent people can hack/burn even smaller kids to death in a daycare or other even softer target. Sword, axe, crossbow, etc. Maybe 20 die and 20 others are disfigured/maimed instead.
Not a solution. And you really do care about the root of the problem Dave. We all do.
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:17pm PT
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Thanks for the link crimp, a lot better than what is being discussed here.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:22pm PT
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yeah crimpie
I have been reading through his blog, thanks
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:24pm PT
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Crimpie: Thoughtful post by a fellow criminologist Chris Uggen.
That's been my point - don't focus on individual incidents and instead try to reduce the overall level of gun violence. Most of the shootings here in PDX are handguns as I suspect they are in most urban areas.
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John M
climber
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:29pm PT
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So what would you do Healy? I can see decreasing access to assault rifles as part of a program to reduce mass killings, but I can't imagine America reducing handguns. Are you for limiting handguns, and if so, to what level? If someone owns one or 50, they still have the potential.
Just trying to understand your position.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:37pm PT
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A big part of the problem is simply the proliferation of guns. I'd try to reduce the overall gun load from 310 million poorly regulated guns to 100 million 'well regulated' guns - see my post in the other thread.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:37pm PT
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Re: Handgun vs longguns....
In 2011, according to the FBI SHR, 57.5% of all murders victims were killed by a firearm. Of the total of all murders in 2011,
*49.1% were committed using a handgun;
*2.6% with a rifle;
*2.8% with a shotgun;
*0.8% with some "other" gun; and
*12.5% with a undisclosed type of firearm (police likely did not fill in that field).
Over time, the % of murder victims killed with a firearm has been stable. Still, more murder victims die as a result of a firearm than other other means.
2007: 67.9% of all murder committed with a firearm
2008: 67.0% "
2009: 66.9% "
2010: 67.4% "
2011: 67.8% "
Someone upthread was feigning concern about asphyxiation. In 2007 to 2010, the % of murder victims due to that was 0.7%; 0.6%; 0.6%; 0.7% and 0.7%. It's not a very effective means to kill someone - that's why most use firearms. Far better tool for the job.
Knives/cutting implements are our second favorite weapon of choice (again, they are pretty effective; but nothing is as efficient as a firearm).
2007: 12.2% murder committed with a knife/cutting implement
2008: 13.3% "
2009: 13.4% "
2010: 13.2% "
2011: 13.4% "
What of personal weapons? That is, hands, feet or fists:
2007: 5.8% murder committed with a body part
2008: 6.2% "
2009: 5.9% "
2010: 5.8% "
2011: 5.7%
If anyone is interested, I'll happily share (email; not typing it all in!) the spreadsheet I created on weapons and murder in 2011. Or go here to the FBI cite for the counts: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8
Enjoy.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:39pm PT
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Rifles are just so damned inconvenient for drive-bys which is what a lot of the shootings in PDX are.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:43pm PT
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Twice as many people bludgeoned to death with hands/feet/fists than killed with rifles???
Very interesting, albeit disturbing, chart...
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:45pm PT
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I fixed a few typos up there. Sorry about that.
Those (with body parts like hands) are likely a lot of intimate partner homicides. While these (primarily) males prefer to kill their intimates with firearms, they are also pretty handy with their hands. :/
edit: I have no agenda Ron. The numbers are what they are. The bottom line is many people are murdered in the country every year, though it's better than it was in the early 90s for sure.
As Uggen notes, the mass murders get a lot of attention which is not surprising. And they often use long guns (rifles, shotguns, etc.) Keep in mind that there is a decent percentage that are unknown. No telling if these 'don't knows' are distributed evenly across the categories or if they are mostly handguns or knives or something.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:49pm PT
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He would be reflected as an aggravated assault in the FBI data. If he would have died, that would be categorized under 'knife/cutting implement.'
I could make a joke, but not very clever tonight. You know she worked at a hair salon after that incident! I wouldn't sit in that woman's chair. :/
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:50pm PT
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I fixed a few typos up there. Sorry about that.
Those are likely intimate partner homicides. While these (primarily) males prefer to kill their intimates with firearms, they are also pretty handy with their hands. :/
I guess, we have a killing problem. People can be very, very bad.
How do we fix this?
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:50pm PT
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In some porn movies I heard too. They sounded like a couple of winners...not.
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John M
climber
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:53pm PT
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banning assault rifles has more to do with mass killings. In my opinion, but I don't really know the numbers. What percentage of mass killings are done with a semi auto rifle? anyone know.
As for reducing numbers of guns to 100 million. I don't believe that number would be low enough to truly effect the numbers of murders. Every household would still be able to have a gun.
Disclaimer.. I am not necessarily for limiting anything. I just want to understand the arguments.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:53pm PT
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I've heard the expression, "I'm gonna rip your arm off and beat you to death with it" but didn't realize that so many people actually did that!
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:58pm PT
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Asked upthread: How to fix it? Well, as long as there are humans, there will be violence and murder. But as a nation, we have to be able to better than we do don't you think? It is actually a fair bit harder to kill someone without the use of a firearm. If we could magically make all guns disappear (and assuming people wanted that) there is no doubt the murder rate would decline.
That is clear. Will it go to zero? Unlikely. But it has to be better.
Now, I'm not saying I'm a proponent of making guns magically disappear, ( seriously, is that even possible?) but making them less available can't hurt. And making owners be more responsible (how? who knows?) can't hurt either. I am around A LOT of guns. I know no one - not one person - that puts their firearms in a safe at home. They are all strewn around homes, left in automobiles, etc. That is careless and inexcusable.
One thing not mentioned (apologize if I missed it) in the thread so far is alcohol. Alcohol is involved in LOTS of violence. In fact, my first comment regarding a crime scene (whether murder or not) is usually "let me guess...was alcohol involved?"
Drunk people do dumb things including killing others and picking fights or putting themselves in places where they get killed. Stopping alcohol abuse would be very helpful imo.
Just some thoughts. The specifics of each of these ideas (making guns less available, responsible gun ownership and alcohol) are easy to rattle off. The specifics on making it happen is far more complex.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:59pm PT
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As for reducing numbers of guns to 100 million. I don't believe that number would be low enough to truly effect the numbers of murders. Every household would still be able to have a gun.
My operative hypothesis is that dropping the overall gun load by two thirds and heavily regulating what remains is probably our best chance at affecting the today's ridiculous level of accessibility.
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John M
climber
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Dec 19, 2012 - 12:01am PT
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The thing that I don't understand is why America has so many gun deaths when other first world countries with plenty of guns don't. I can understand third world countries, but not first world.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 19, 2012 - 12:04am PT
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Ron:
Regarding gangs... I know you say a lot happens where you are, but they were a negligible contributor to overall murder in the US in 2011. Been that way for a while. There were many more in the early 1990s which is already 20 years ago!
In 2011, 4.1% of all murder was committed as a result of juvenile gang violence. There is also a category in FBI data called 'gangland killings' which accounts for 1.2% more. So at best, in the US, 5.3% of murders are a result of gang-violence.
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