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yo
climber
NOT Fresno
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Oct 27, 2005 - 10:32pm PT
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Dogpiling Largo. I won't join in.
I don't know, he's talking about the progression of the "movement," meaning big wall climbing and the aid community. He's not saying toe the line. His generation was pretty uppity, but they didn't come out of nowhere.
Did Mark and Richard have a blast doing their route? For sure.
Did it set a new standard for difficulty? No, because it wasn't accepted when put up, and now that window has passed.
Did it expand aid's possibilities? Maybe, that you can get up slabs. Again, was it accepted? No. Is it accepted? Still no.
Did the community benefit as a whole? Obviously no. Ill will still abounds.
Could the answer to all these have been yes?
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Oct 27, 2005 - 11:12pm PT
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Dogpile on, boys. What I have written and still write is nothing but my opinion--not the voice of God or any such hogwash--and everyone is obviously free to express their own. In asking what El Cap might think about the ascent does not imply that I know the answer, otherwise I would have provided the answer.
Nobody needs permission to climb anything. Not from me. Not from anyone. I never asked for permission or endorcement from anyone to climb anything at any time. But I was sensitive, at least to myself and my peers, that we conducted ourselves to the best of our abilities in a way that did the Yosemite climber proud, meaning we tried to push things as best we could because we felt there was a tradition to uphold, and if possible, advance.
At that time (70s), most of the people trying to uphold the tradition had nothing else of real importance in their lives, so we built on the past and tried to sustain the tradition. Elitist? Well, we tried to maintain an elite standard. That's what gave the thing meaning and direction.
There's nothing "wrong" with breaking with tradition--look at the sport climbing revolution. But sport climbing opened up a whole new world, and I simply wonder if Wings of Steel broke with tradition in a way that advanced the sport in the round. It's an interesting question, and one that everyone has to answer for themselves.
Lastly, I always felt that when you do a big new route with a lot of drilling, it's not just about you, the guys who make the first ascent. I still feel that way.
JL
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 27, 2005 - 11:16pm PT
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Jeff said: "What would el cap think" is classic. Such a statement implies that you know what el cap would think and that el cap would agree with you ...."
Not so Jeff, that’s really what you are trying to imply not what Largo’s real question was. Such a question is actually presented to the owner of material nature the real doer.
The self is merely the witness to the movements of material nature. Although the self animates material nature, it becomes overwhelmed by material nature's influence and thinks itself to be the doer of acts that are in actuality performed by material nature. For example, the self animates material nature by the force of desire and then material nature consumes the self in an illusory world of misidentification.
This might be to way out there for most people to comprehend? But that’s ok too.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Oct 28, 2005 - 02:00am PT
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To Clint Cummins:
The Meyers/Reid guide is correct about the bathooks connecting to Aquarian Wall on the last pitch. There are, I think, 10 bathooks getting across that traverse. I always tend to conflate "the route" with "the slab," since ongoing jibes like "a thousand bolts to Horse Chute" keep reminding me that everybody who was/is pissed off was/is pissed off about what we did on the great slab. So, what I have always meant when I talk about "the route" is the slab. Notice that not one person on this topic has even mentioned the 400 feet of overhanging copperhead seams getting from the slab to Aquarian Wall. Nobody tends to think about that part of the "route" as any issue, and so I just didn't think about that traverse either. But, to be as precise in speaking as possible, there are no bathooks on the slab; as is clearly stated on our original topo, and as all published topos show, there are some bathooks on the short traverse connecting Wings to Aquarian.
Now, since using bathooks was not our practice on the route, it bears explaination WHY we used them there just to exit our route into Aquarian Wall. At that point in the route we had three rivets left (I guess we didn't bring a big enough load of "courage in our rucksack," so to speak), we had dropped our sharpening stone somewhere during the last third of the slab (so all of our drill bits were really dull and would barely drill), and so we couldn't drill a ladder of full-depth bolts just to get ourselves off of our route and across to Aquarian (keep in mind that we were down to 600 calories per day by that point). The wall is overhanging there, so a lengthy pendulum was not an option (note a short tension traverse at the end of p13). Thus, our three rivets went into that traverse (one for the tension traverse) and the other placements are bathooks. I hope this explains our thinking and the existence of the anomolous bathooks.
To Ammon:
All topos I've seen are adapted from the original topo we drew in 1982. Our topo showed every hole (with 'r' for rivet and 'x' for bolt), so our topo required some adaptation to fit into a guidebook format. On the published topos, most of the X's that appear within pitches are zinc/aluminum (zamak style) rivets with button heads. Some pitch ratings have been downgraded either because guidebook editors assumed we overrated things or because ratings in general have deflated over time. The Meyers/Reid topo is plenty good enough to get you there.
You will want to a take a bunch of #2 heads (at least 40). We weren't smart enough in '82 (neither was anybody else) to realize that heads should ONLY be made from stainless steel cable, so the heads we didn't want to destroy getting out are surely JUNK by now!
Every anchor has a 3/8" bolt and so should still be ok. The bolts in pitches (and the other bolts at anchors) were 1/4" but with button heads, well placed, and with Leeper hangers (which were the best out there at the time). But after all these years they may be becoming suspect (we have personally broken two Leeper hangers over the years--not our own, but ones existing on other routes).
If you want to email me directly, I'll thrutch around to see if I can come up with an original topo to scan and send you.
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MSmith
Mountain climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 28, 2005 - 02:04am PT
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Clint,
Regarding “[there’s] mention of bathooks on the traverse to Aquarian. How did that get on the topo?”
The topo is accurate. There are no bat hooks in Wings of Steel throughout the Great Slab or the crack systems above the Overseer Roof. Wings of Steel comes to an end 50 feet right of Aquarian Wall. There is a 13 hole ladder ending in a tension traverse to join Aquarian. Ten of these holes (as I recall) are bat hooks because we were out of rivets. This short traverse has no natural placements and doesn’t require any skill beyond the basic movement between aid placements. We counted the 13 holes in our hole count, although the climb is basically over at the anchor starting the traverse.
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John F. Kerry
Social climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 28, 2005 - 10:08am PT
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I respect JL immensely and always enjoy his writing.
Still: ...most of the people trying to uphold the tradition had nothing else of real importance in their lives...
IMO this is the key to the whole rock police enchilada, and it goes beyond WoS. It's not simply about "respecting the rock", "being one with the natural world" or "advancing a movement".
Here's what it's about: rock police craft their self-image and derive their self-esteem primarily from the feats they've accomplished on the stone. The worst of them don't have much else to live for. Anything (sport climbing) or anyone (Mark & Richard) who threatens that dynamic is put in the crosshairs. No arguments about hole counts and technical difficulty will sway them, because the issue is an emotional one not a logical one.
I am still waiting to hear why the Sea's drill enhancements are somehow mo' betta than WoS's drill enhancements. Oh, I know why: because famous locals did the drilling. OK.
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Oct 28, 2005 - 11:24am PT
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Madbolter-
This all seems like a case of a ongoing, 20 year "protesteth too much," situation if you ask me. I wasn't in the Valley when Wings of Steel went up, but remember hearing about the 145 holes during a time when the standard was to look for natural lines.
In other words, if you couldn't find a new natural line on El Cap, look elsewhere. There is something to be said for style and standards of the day.
Reading your posts about Wings of Steel, I sense an underlying arrogance:
"What we found, and what we have ALWAYS found (which is WHY I had no intention of devoting any more time to this forum after my first post), is that NOBODY would actually HEAR us or believe us. "
--how do you know? There seems to be more effort proselitizing the above statement than realizing that in reality no one really cared that much. The people who messed with your fixed ropes were definitely not the cutting edge Valley climbers of the day.
"we spent ENDLESS hours attempting dialog with people in the Valley, and we spent YEARS afterward at major climbing areas all over California explaining ourselves to the MANY people who would gather around to badger us"
--people only gather around if you call them, if it was a route truly for yourself, why talk about it at all?
"Mark and I quit counting aborted attempts on the route after about fifteen. "
--this seems like an example of caring more for the aftermath of the route than the "experience" itself.
Furthermore, is the name of the book promoting the climb really "Wings of Steel: A record 39 days on the face of El Capitan?" Spare me if so, a clear attempt to impress the non-climbing community. I'm amazed at how the general public are targeted with publicity about big numbers of days spent on a wall climb. Aquarian, right next door to your route, got climbed on the FA in four days. A lot more impressive, in my book.
Also, you keep quoting Slater as the reference of the fact that your route was at the top of the scale in difficulty. Slater was one of the best all round climbers of the day, close to the caliber of Alex Lowe, to be sure, but wall climbing wasn't his strongest suit. He rated a pitch A5+ on the Sheep Ranch,an unheard of grade at the time. I saw him when he and Barbella strolled into Camp 4, "Hardest route on El Cap!," was the first thing he said to me. When Xaver climbed that pitch, he thought that pitch A4/A4+ and even skipped a rivet (he missed it without seeing it until he was above it). And for sure, Xaver wasn't in the game of competive numbers just for the sake of promoting himself. And I found some of the other A4+ and A5 pitches moderate for the grade, A4 tops.
I sense you are trying to evangelize your cause so that people will finally believe that what you did was cutting edge and deserves "credit" for being so. Let it stand for itself if you really believe that.
Then you talk about being "silent" for 10 years. Writing a book isn't silence. It could be a good book about a wild personal experience, I don't know, I haven't read it, but gimme a break about "silence."
Lastly, from a climber's perspective, I'm a bit confused about a seeming contradiction about your drilling up there. There's a comment:
"if you can look at a Wings placement and say “that was done with a drill or chisel,” then you are looking at a rivet or a bolt."
--but earlier you mentioned that you enhanced hook placements.
Perhaps if you let up a little about convincing the climbing community of your "visionary" route (personally, I don't see it as such), you will reap more benefit of the personal experience itself, which is what I am sure you ultimately earnest about, and believe in your heart.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Oct 28, 2005 - 11:42am PT
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Johnkerry wrote:
"I respect JL immensely and always enjoy his writing.
Still: ...most of the people trying to uphold the tradition had nothing else of real importance in their lives...
IMO this is the key to the whole rock police enchilada, and it goes beyond WoS. It's not simply about "respecting the rock", "being one with the natural world" or "advancing a movement".
Here's what it's about: rock police craft their self-image and derive their self-esteem primarily from the feats they've accomplished on the stone. The worst of them don't have much else to live for. Anything (sport climbing) or anyone (Mark & Richard) who threatens that dynamic is put in the crosshairs. No arguments about hole counts and technical difficulty will sway them, because the issue is an emotional one not a logical one."
Actually, that's your take on it, John, not mine.
JL
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John F. Kerry
Social climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 28, 2005 - 12:25pm PT
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"...Actually, that's your take on it, John, not mine..."
Exactly. I think I screwed up the bold/quoting in my post. Didn't mean to make it look like it was all quoting you or that the remainder of the post was your intent.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 28, 2005 - 01:11pm PT
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"...I wasn't in the Valley when Wings of Steel went up, but remember hearing about the 145 holes during a time when the standard was to look for natural lines.
In other words, if you couldn't find a new natural line on El Cap, look elsewhere. There is something to be said for style and standards of the day."
yeah, yeah...
a more concise version of what I was trying to say in my orginal posts. Per haps I am "not qualified to have an opinion," but surely duece and Largo are.
And I don't think their opions are based on the fact that MArk and Richard were not part of the "Camp 4 crew," I think it's an unwritten rule that you repect local standards and traditions at any climbing area that you are a new player in.
For instance, you wouldn't see me toting a power drill and rap bolting any of the hundreds of unclimbed faces in Castle Crags state park...although the territory is ripe for the picking. Because that's not how things get climbed in the Crags.
Rock Cops, sure maybe so...so what? What would our crags be like without rock cops?
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nickh
climber
St. Louis, MO
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Oct 28, 2005 - 01:18pm PT
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Forgive me JL if I am not remembering well, or I am out of context in some way, but I have been entertained and inspired more than once by tales of your youthful misadventures on southern California boulders.
Weren't you introduced to climbing by the dogmatic "outing clubs" at the time, though you came to reject their rigidity?
Weren't the behaviors of you and your crew frowned upoun by those in the clubs?
Weren't you considered to have not payed your dues when you tied in below the testpieces of the day?
In the end you and your cotemporaries pushed the level of climbing far above what it had been. Would you have been able to do this if you spent your time working your way up through the ranks of the clubs "properly", instead of "goofing off on the boulders".
Is you situation not-comparable to those of the FAists of Wings of Steel?
Nick
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Oct 28, 2005 - 01:19pm PT
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No harm done, John. It's just a strange thing to think of our group in terms of "Rock Police." We all considered ourselves rebels with no ideas of ownership--of the Valley and the standards and the new route potentials. I can grasp folks not wanting to account to anyone, or any standard, or any tradition. For myself, I was much the same, but I learned over time that this method tended to leave me in a vacume where I could no longer recognize my own bullsh#t. To safeguard against that, to keep myself honest, it was always helpful to have any new routes "peer reviewed," much as a scientist has his experiments confirmed by others to vouchsafe that they are real, or not. The peer review adds nothing to the original experience, and any resulting "fame" is so small (or was back then) as to be meaningless.
I guess it's confusing for a climbing team to come out of nowhere, do a big route, then sort of demand or at any rate expect fantastic reviews from the core climbing comunity to which they were, by choice, never really a part of. In fact such a review would be forthcoming if the route caught fire as a classic. But in their defense, perhaps Wings of Steel was wrongfully bad rapped from the get-go and folks have steered clear believing--corectly or otherwise--that the line was a contrived sham and a carny show. One thing is for sure--leading aid climbers have not been scared off the thing.
What we need is for some credible team to go up there and repeat he thing so we have some concrete data to go on. Till that happens we're all just blowing smoke.
JL
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jeff benowitz
climber
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Oct 28, 2005 - 02:09pm PT
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Werner my disagreement with “what elcap thinks” has less to do with
the base philosophy that everything has a consciousness, and more
to do with my personal view on relationships with such. Your relationship with
g-d is personal as is my relationship with “the mountains.” In the same way that it irks folks when someone says, “Your going to hell because you don’t believe what I believe.”, I would never state that the mountains I have a personal relationship with (plutonic as it maybe) are passing judgment on others actions. I guess it goes even deeper, to the basis of my upbringing. Jews don’t have a heaven or hell. There is no such in the old testament-ask a highly educated Rabbi if you disagree-. I was taught not even to say the name of g-d, to do such would be disrespect. As my dad used to say, “Jeff g-d is none of your business, cleaning your room and helping your sister with her math, that is your business.” Does that make sense? Oh if anyone is wondering, Yes "us jews" own all the banks(so be nice) and control the "world governemnt." Me, my uncle Saul, gave me Iran (cause I was not nice to my sister and used my yumaka as a frisbee) and I got some work to do there next month.
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the Fet
Trad climber
Loomis, CA
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Oct 28, 2005 - 02:11pm PT
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First of all: Best Thread Ever! IMO.
It's interesting to me that after the WEML people still think you can dictate another climbers style. Length of time, amount of gear used, publicity, etc. is a personal choice that no other person can really specify. There is no pefect style (except a shoeless, chalkless, onsight free solo) so you do the best you can. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
IMO the hole count is possibly justified dependent on the quality of the climbing. A fantastic line full of difficult, aesthetic climbing can justify the use of holes on blank sections. No one ever repeated the line so we have no idependent opinions as to the quality of the climbing. Yet the route was trashed without this vital info (we are all just blowing smoke as Largo says).
Did the FA party expect accolades or are they just upset their route/effort was dissed without any real inspection? Maybe both?
Did the community at the time trash their effort without giving it a chance? Did the FA party charge in and do a route without establishing themselves first and give it a controversial name creating animosity? Maybe both?
One thing for sure IMO, anyone who trashes/craps on someone elses gear, uses violence, smashes hangers instead of trying to cleanly remove bolts, or chops a route without climbing it first is motivated by ego, not service to the climbing community.
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yo
climber
NOT Fresno
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Oct 28, 2005 - 02:32pm PT
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Yes "us jews" own all the banks and control the "world governemnt." Me, my uncle Saul, gave me Iran (cause I was not nice to my sister and used my yumaka as a frisbee) and I got some work to do there next month.
hahaha
Jeff, two questions:
1. Is your middle name really Apple?
2. If so, does it chap yer ass that Gyneth Paltrow named her girl kid Apple?
What's the current +/- on Ammon's second ascent in a push?
I say 22:30.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 28, 2005 - 02:46pm PT
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“This science of ethics was thus received through the chain of disciplic succession, and the ascensionists understood it in that way. But in course of time the succession was broken, and therefore this science appears to be lost."
The eternal rules exist to guide us to the proper understanding that will transcend our mundane limitations and faults to establish the eternal laws which guard the absolute truth.
Powers that we are witnessing at hand on this subject matter go far beyond the people involved here; there is no room for mundane speculation.
Thus we see now the all too familiar hypocrisy and quarrel that abounds in our present age.
Best wishes for the continuation of the debate and the second ascent :-)
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MSmith
Mountain climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 28, 2005 - 05:40pm PT
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deuce4-
Responding to “’If you can look at a Wings placement and say “that was done with a drill or chisel,” then you are looking at a rivet or a bolt.’ --but earlier you mentioned that you enhanced hook placements.”
Your confusion probably stems from the fact that what I meant by “enhanced” is not what “enhanced” is generally taken to mean. On the Sea, for instance, enhanced meant some kind of hole drilled diagonally behind a flake or into a sloping ledge (at a critical point on Hook or Book, on a 45 degree slope!). Such holes were designed to take the point of a taper-ground Chouinard/Black Diamond Cliffhanger. On Wings of Steel “enhanced” means that we chipped out a crystal at the back of a ledge so the point of a Leeper Narrow could rest at the back the ledge. Typically only a single crystal was chipped out, although on some larger ledges where there was a crust of decomposing rock we chipped out several crystals in order to find solid rock. Our "enhancements" didn't create a hole or go diagonally into the cliff. There are many enhanced hook placements on Wings of Steel, but, unlike the Sea, when you do the climb you won’t be able to tell which flakes were enhanced and which ones weren’t.
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jeff benowitz
climber
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Oct 28, 2005 - 07:01pm PT
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Whoa M smith. In a lot of people's book every time the drill touches the rock it should be in the hole count. Now I'm starting to understand the "situation." I know it might be semantics, but if the placement wasn't good enough to use without using a drill, than by definition it should be in the hole count. Just cause you made a body weight hole, instead of a ½ inch bolt doesn’t change the count. Sure it makes it “harder” and scarier to chip a hook instead of drill a bolt, but either way you are bringing the rock down to your level. How many times did the drill come out? Be honest, or is the number to high to remember? Sorry for lambasting ya John, tar and feather the blokes for all I care.
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atchafalaya
Trad climber
California
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Oct 28, 2005 - 07:13pm PT
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this thread sounds like when someone tells their girlfriend "what I meant to say was"... when its already way too late to say anything that is gonna mean anything
was that unintelligible?
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Oct 28, 2005 - 07:25pm PT
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It's commendable that the "enhanced" flakes look natural, but of course, that's what Jardine was doing when he was pushing the free variant up on the Nose, and that wasn't acceptable by the norm then, either, never has been.
In aid, of course, it has always been an occasional technique to break off a loose flake or something to make a placement, but think about it en masse, and you may be coming closer to the questions people were raising at the time.
You can be sure that Grossman never "enhanced" any of his hooks without acknowledging it on the lower pitches of Jolly Rodger, steeper and just as thin--the epitome of difficult natural hooking (emphasis on natural).
Don't get me wrong, I am sure Wings of Steel involves terrifying hooking ptiches, but there's a big difference in the experience if you have a drill and/or chisel by your side and are willing to enhance to your level.
In aid, many people seem to mistake the end result with the experience itself. The purpose of the resulting number, for example, is really only to warn your friends what they can expect, not to announce to the world of your prowess.
I always thought that the left side of El Cap slab will go free someday.
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