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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - May 13, 2014 - 10:54am PT
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Nothing like a gal with a gun to set us straight! Fish approves ;-)
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - May 13, 2014 - 11:09am PT
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Former vice president Al Gore says he sees the true motivation behind these remarks: currying favor with Republican megadonors like Charles and David Koch.
Speaking at the University of Chicago's Institute of Politics on Monday, Gore noted that Republicans like John McCain and Mitt Romney had acknowledged and taken steps toward solving the issue before it became politicized by the right.
"I don't think it's particularly complicated why they have all cowed into abandoning that position," Gore said. "They will face primary opponents financed by the Koch Brothers, and others who are part of their group, if they even breathe the slightest breath of sympathy for the truth about climate science. It's not really that complicated."
Gore continued: "And of course, Sen. Paul is from a coal state, but even if he were not, anyone who wants to set his or her aspirations on the Republican nomination for the presidency in 2016 already knows that they can't possibly cross the Koch brothers and the others that are part of that group, the large carbon polluters and ideological anti-statists who are really terrified that the government will do anything new, so as Grover Norquist said famously years ago, they want to shrink the government to where it can be drowned in a bathtub."
Yes, like I said earlier, "right-wing spin."
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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May 13, 2014 - 11:14am PT
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We are all going to die..... so sad.
In the mean time you-all just toss all your cash this a way, govmt will save the day.
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dirtbag
climber
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May 13, 2014 - 11:18pm PT
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In the mean time you-all just toss all your cash this a way, govmt will save the day.
You're right.
A better use of your money is to buy beer, porn, and all the other goodies you can consuuuuuume instead of using that money to ensure you leave a decent planet for your progeny.
After all, it's all about YOU and your precious goodies.
God bless America, cuz I've got mine now.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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May 14, 2014 - 01:12am PT
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We've had the release of IPCC's AR5 SPM, then the series of working group reports, we've had our own national climate asessment, now we've had the release of the NOAA sea temps and the absurd papers on the West Antarctic glaciers supposedly inevitable slide into the sea. All of these reports, papers and manipulated data's are falling on largely deaf ears. The majority of the populace, and now some major media outlets, openly snicker at the ridulous ineptitude of the international cabal of fascist ecofreaks posing as warm and fuzzy socialists and pushing this failing scheme. A large portion of the remaining populace just silently nod in agreement, not wanting to invite "progressive wrath" upon their already sore ears. The largest segment of the populace pushing this agenda is composed of the huge CAGW industry comprised of publically funded and failing corporations (often producing absolutely nothing before going bankrupt, but not before the top management escape with golden parachutes), politicians that get rich through family aimed kickbacks and recieve large campaign donations from those that benefit from their legislation, and universities whose professors have churned out huge excesses of otherwise useless environmental studies graduates increasingly over the last few generations; all these industry participants are pushing their idiotic agenda as if their life depends on it. In reality their lives, or at least their livliehoods, depend on the continuing green rape of our society . Of course their is another small subset of the populace, like Bruce, who through no fault of their own limited mental faculties fell for the propaganda hook, line and sinker. Dupes like these often heavily weight their meager retirement portfolios with the now sinking green tech stocks. Pity the poor fools.
Let's get it straight people. The earth is not going to burn. The equillibrium climate sensitivity of a doubling of CO2 is steadily trending downwards as legitamate ( non CAGW industry) scientists, in increasing numbers, look at real data in realistic ways. The ECS is accepted to be 1.3C, or less by these scientists, as the much ballyhooed feedbacks are weighted to the negative side of the ledger. You will not drown in rapid sea level rise, in fact the slow steady rise in sealevels from the little ice age is by many accounts slowing and will amount to less than a foot over the next century. The frequency and intensity of storms is not increasing, rather it is decreasing. Droughts and heatwaves are not increasing, rather only the much hyped media coverage is increasing. Modern agriculture is not in any danger of not meeting the needs of the masses. The total ice mass of the earth is not currently shrinking, in fact, because of massive gains in Antartica it is slightly increasing. The Sun has just passed, in the late 1990's, a 1000 year maximum of activity ( grand maximum) and is forecast with increasing certainty to go into at least a 30 year cycle of unusually low activity. In short, we are entering into a cooling period.
All will be fine. Don't worry your pretty, or ugly, little heads as it will make absolutely no difference. Nothing to see here people, go home, go to sleep. Your kids and grandkids will thankyou for the inattention to this manufactured crisis.
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Pam
Social climber
San Clemente, CA
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May 14, 2014 - 01:58am PT
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When you've been around as long as I have, you see "studies" and "experiments" that go every which way. cholesterol is bad, ooops no it's good, oh wait there are different types, ..... Vitamin C was the craze for awhile, will cure everything, no wait it's not so good, no wait........ killer bees are coming - they're crossing the border now!! No these freak viruses will kill us ..... no we're running out of oil.... oh I guess we're not.... gotta smear sunscreen on every spare inch of exposed body or we'll die of cancer.... oh you mean we had less skin cancer before the sunscreen craze.... really?.....
You realize after awhile that you could come up with a study to support almost every conceivable belief. Studies are inherently skewed toward one result or another, depending on who's funding it and who stands to gain $ from a certain finding. And the people who participate are paid to participate, and fill things out quickly, etc....
The longer you live you realize you have to use common sense. "Experts" never know as much as they say.... I know this because I"m a lawyer... do you know most lawyers wing it as often as not... and every lawyer wings it for the first 10 years every second of the day. And when you get older you realize most doctors wing it too.... I"ve learned more from personal experience and researching other people's experiences than from any doctor.
Have you ever noticed that you can ride in a plane for hours and hours and not see any evidence of human beings? Then ... a smidgen of civilization for a few minutes, before more hours of nothingness. I think this planet is a very large place that could hiccup and we'd all be flattened in a nanosecond. To think we could have any effect whatsoever on this monumental object is complete narcissism. We're not that powerful. Or smart. We can't even predict tomorrow's weather with any accuracy. We're constantly befuddled by hurricanes that move around, bridges and buildings that fall that shouldn't, floods that surprise us, etc...
Worry more about caring for your mom, sister, brother, friend and neighbor. This earth is just fine.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2014 - 01:59am PT
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Let's get it straight people. The earth is not going to burn.
Nothing like the solace that is spread from the opinion of a level-headed friend.
Level-headed... ?
The frequency and intensity of storms is not increasing, rather it is decreasing. Droughts and heatwaves are not increasing, rather only the much hyped media coverage is increasing.
Rick, tell the "hyped media" to turn down the heat in Texas, they're dyin' down there.
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Pam
Social climber
San Clemente, CA
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May 14, 2014 - 02:37am PT
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I'm not infatuated with the study of rappelling - that's me on the cover. I'm only nameless because they won't let me edit my nickname. And I'm not reacting or responding to anything but the original subject.
I think I might be one of the few republicans on this site... which is surprising and disappointing because I always pegged climbers as intelligent freethinkers who aren't easily swayed by hype and mainstream thinking. In this day and age, nothing is more mainstream than left-wing ideology. I would've thought we'd have more diversity of thought.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 14, 2014 - 03:49am PT
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...the international cabal of fascist ecofreaks posing as warm and fuzzy socialists... That fact people lept upon this particular Jonas Goldberg meme is another indicator of just how ignorant people can be and how much guys like him, Rove and Atwater depend on that to make bank.
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raymond phule
climber
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May 14, 2014 - 04:15am PT
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Have you ever noticed that you can ride in a plane for hours and hours and not see any evidence of human beings? Then ... a smidgen of civilization for a few minutes, before more hours of nothingness.
Yes, this is true both over the arctic and the atlantic ocean! Over other land masses, not really actually.
Have you flown over north america, south america, europe, Africa or Asia or was it the clouds that made you come up with that ridiculous notice?
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2014 - 04:50am PT
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Have you ever noticed that you can ride in a plane for hours and hours and not see any evidence of human beings?
Um, you mean as you fly over the ocean? Yes, interesting how there are fewer folks out at sea. But, sit next to the window next time you fly and see how long you can go without seeing evidence of human beings as you cross land.
This point of yours, along with most of your others Rapunzel, is pretty flimsy. You compare various "studies" and OpEd articles (such as "Vitamin C will cure everything") to serious scientific research, which makes for pretty weak sauce in a serious debate.
And, Doctors don't wing it. They rely on years of study and practice to make decisions about how to act. Successful doctors get their actions right more times than not because of the knowledge they've gained over their years of study. In a legal battle, you'd be happy to see me as your opposing attorney because you'd know within a second that you had more knowledge and experience in the law than I, and you'd crush me. Now, I'd be the one winging it, right? That's because you couldn't in your right mind call me a lawyer!
Again, weak sauce.
I think I might be one of the few republicans on this site... which is surprising and disappointing because I always pegged climbers as intelligent freethinkers who aren't easily swayed by hype and mainstream thinking.
Actually, there have been a few stalwart republicans on this site. I'm sure you'll soon find a nice connection with John E. However, from what I've seen, most republicans who have joined this forum have gotten their political opinions fed to them from Fox News. Hardly intelligent freethinkers.
Now, a small quiz Rapunzel. If we increase the CO2 in the atmosphere, does that cause the Ph in the ocean to increase or decrease, and how confident are you in your answer?
I ask because I'm curious to know if you believe in the results of scientific study.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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May 14, 2014 - 11:12am PT
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2014 - 11:13am PT
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I'm skeptical of the media's coverage of climate related research.
From NBC:
West Antarctic Ice Sheet's Collapse Triggers Sea Level Warning
Two teams of scientists say the long-feared collapse of the West Antarctic Ice Sheet has begun, kicking off what they say will be a centuries-long, "unstoppable" process that could raise sea levels by as much as 15 feet.
The Guardian:
Western Antarctic ice sheet collapse has already begun, scientists warn
Two separate studies confirm loss of ice sheet is inevitable, and will cause up to 4m of additional sea-level rise
 Sketch
Sketch, I find it interesting that you cite different media sources whose reports say basically the same thing. Are you skeptical because the message isn't what you want to hear?
Are you less skeptical of this media report?
“Our climate is always changing. And what they have chosen to do is take a handful of decades of research and say that this is now evidence of a longer-term trend that's directly and almost solely attributable to man-made activities… I do not believe that human activity is causing these dramatic changes to our climate the way these scientists are portraying it.”
Sketch, you seem to favor the latter media message over the first two, even though the latter is an opinion and the first two are describing the analysis of data gained through scientific research.
To me, Sketch, it looks like the media reporting you do believe are the reports whose messages align with your opinion, and those opinions are not based on sound science.
So while you say you "mostly" believe in science, your views of climate change are based on non-scientific opinion.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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May 14, 2014 - 01:51pm PT
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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May 14, 2014 - 01:57pm PT
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^^^HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa^^^
im not here to condone with the tribe. Or condemn.
Only for the Comic Relief!!
Chief you should your own radio show. I'd love to hear these guyses gasps after you spank'em!
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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May 14, 2014 - 02:41pm PT
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One way to learn what scientists are saying is to read their own words, instead of relying on the opinions of non-scientist bloggers. For example, from the Jet Propulsion Laboratory site here is Eric Rignot, lead author of the new West Antarctic observational study, summarizing their conclusions:
These glaciers already contribute significantly to sea level rise, releasing almost as much ice into the ocean annually as the entire Greenland Ice Sheet. They contain enough ice to raise global sea level by 4 feet (1.2 meters) and are melting faster than most scientists had expected. Rignot said these findings will require an upward revision to current predictions of sea level rise.
"This sector will be a major contributor to sea level rise in the decades and centuries to come," Rignot said. "A conservative estimate is it could take several centuries for all of the ice to flow into the sea."
The accelerating flow rates, lack of pinning points and sloping bedrock all point to one conclusion, Rignot said.
"The collapse of this sector of West Antarctica appears to be unstoppable," he said. "The fact that the retreat is happening simultaneously over a large sector suggests it was triggered by a common cause, such as an increase in the amount of ocean heat beneath the floating sections of the glaciers. At this point, the end of this sector appears to be inevitable."
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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May 14, 2014 - 03:08pm PT
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"The collapse of this sector of West Antarctica appears to be unstoppable," he said. "The fact that the retreat is happening simultaneously over a large sector suggests it was triggered by a common cause, such as an increase in the amount of ocean heat beneath the floating sections of the glaciers. At this point, the end of this sector appears to be inevitable."
Are these glaciers saltwater or freshwater?
If their freshwater, maybe we could tug'em up to Cali and offload'em in Stockton so they could water the San Joaquin? Since their gonna die anyway..
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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May 14, 2014 - 03:25pm PT
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Are these glaciers saltwater or freshwater?
Fresh. It's an idea that has been thought up many times. For a snapshot of its history, check out this 2011 article from Atlantic on "The Many Failures and Few Successes of Zany Iceberg Towing Schemes." A few excerpts:
Mid 1800s: According to the Encyclopedia of Antartica, small icebergs were towed from southern Chile up to Valparaiso as part of the brewery supply chain. A Chilean researcher said, "The icebergs were towed by ships of the conventional type. Sometimes the icebergs were supplied with sails to utilize the prevailing winds. The ice was used for refrigerating purposes in the breweries and was generally substituted for artificial ice." Apparently, the business continued until about the turn of the century. March 9, 1914: A short notice in The Washington Times describes a new iceberg towing operation being advertised in area papers. "The Northern Berg Ice Company is planning to tow icebergs into Boston, New York, Baltimore, and Philadelphia, exhibit them excursion steamers, and then dynamite the bergs into small pieces for market. No names of interested capitalists have as yet been made public, and the advertisements came as a surprise to ice dealers, who say the scheme is not practical." October 1973: The RAND Corporation dives 96 pages deep on "Antarctic Icebergs as a Global Fresh Water Source" for the National Science Foundation. By far the most comprehensive scheme to date, J.L. Hult and N.C. Ostrander went far beyond previous speculations to create an actual paper model of how an "iceberg train" could work. This is classic RAND work with lots of math and appendices. It made them a national media story. "Bringing icebergs to where the water is needed was suggested by John Isaacs of Scripps Institute of Oceanography in the 1950s," Hult told the AP. "It is our job to show how practical it is." Their scheme was inspired more by theoretical least-cost equations more than common sense. For example, they suggested sending a floating nuclear power plant to provide power for the operation. Present: Iceberg towing is now commonplace in the Arctic near oil rigs. There are fairly standard procedures for dealing with all sizes of bergs and some upwards of 4 million tonnes have been towed successfully, according to a Canadian government report.
The crazy scheme side of the iceberg towing industry continues apace. And the breathless media reporting on such things continues as well. This is one of these ideas that no matter how many times you repeat it remains some wild guy's wacky idea. Here's Wired UK on the latest iceberg towing suggestion by Frenchman Georges Mougin, who worked with Prince Faisal way back when.
"French engineer Georges Mougin has a big idea. He wants to go to Antarctica, tie a big rope around a six-million-ton iceberg, drag it back to Africa and melt it into fresh, drinkable water. Some might call him crazy, but Mougin reckons the plan could work."
Indeed he does, like so many before him.
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