Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Apr 13, 2008 - 09:08pm PT
|
Oh com-on now. Yer fer-gettin Coz is old school, no disrespect now, but old school kind-of adheres to the philosophy a wicked right hook to the jaw and it's settled.
Then you have the new school philosophy, some Ghandian type "peace man" blah blah blah, on and on and on, non-violence this and non-violence that, all while killing animals to gratify the tongue.
Keepin it real and unreal ........
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Apr 13, 2008 - 09:11pm PT
|
I think many of us feel while the climb itself may/may not be one step backwards any unilateral action to erase it will certainly be two full steps backward. Over the last forty years, any time I was asked, this is what I said. Since what I said was never important, I bring this up only to establish this counsel is entirely independent of the circumstances. Perhaps a universal truth, if you will.
Divad brings up the aversion we all have as regards "confrontation". When we allow a "question" to become personalized it then becomes a "confrontation". It need not. When a question has been voiced, as it has been here, the leading edge of the wave in our minds should simply be a fascination with finding out what the answer will be. Curiosity may have killed the cat but, perhaps, we may be more fortunate.
Divad I see you are in western Massachusetts. We have something in common. My people left a hillside farm near New Marlborough in 1853 and took up residence on another hillside farm in New York. Ah, the march of upward progress.
Deuce4:
Thank you so much for the accurate rendition. Normally I disregard completely any pictures I see. I now know that wall requires steely self control and confidence in one's abilities. What a wonderful place to test oneself.
|
|
divad
Trad climber
wmass
|
|
|
Apr 13, 2008 - 09:33pm PT
|
jstan, I have relatives who owned a farm in Monterey, Mass., near New Marlborough. Spent a lot of time there as a kid.
As a gunkie, I am well aware of your impact there and wish our time there had overlapped.
As for my post, just trying to inject some humor into a serious discussion to keep it on the civil side, much like you.
I guess we do have things in common.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Apr 13, 2008 - 09:41pm PT
|
Divad:
A reunion is planned in the Gunks for September I think. If you think you can get free for a day or so I will try hard to make it. (Long traverse you see.) If you, I, and Goldstone get on something together, despite my whimpering and moaning, it will be something to remember.
Edit:
I double checked Laura Smith's email. It is Oct.11-19. Once I would make it to the east coast I expect I would be there longer. Surely will want to visit all the nocem's I got on a first name basis with in the Adirondaks.
|
|
divad
Trad climber
wmass
|
|
|
Apr 13, 2008 - 09:54pm PT
|
jstan, I'm sure it would be something to remember and I would look forward to it.
|
|
Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
|
Apr 13, 2008 - 10:28pm PT
|
Deuce4,
Thanks for posting up your experience and that photo. Wow! "Probably" the first to free climb on the upper wall you say, and I'm pretty sure there's no probably about it. You're just being modest. All my research on the face says you were for sure.
When I read your account of your winter ascent and rescue from the Harding-Rowell South Face early in 1986, it wasn't just your epic close call in that snowstorm, with the avalanches so heavy they popped the bolt supporting one of your portaledges -- that wasn't all that caught my attention.
No, I was equally excited by your coming out of aiders up there to try the free climbing. "I immediately realized," you wrote (I'm quoting from Deuce's website), "that we had just discovered the most awesome free-climbable face in the Valley, and I free-climbed some bathooking sections at 5.10a/b between bolts just to try it out. We were having a great time." (This was during t-shirt weather before the storm hit.)
Now we get your great photo to back it up. Controversy aside, this thread is adding so much depth to the story of the opening of free climbing on the South Face. Within a few short years it jumped from your first tasting it to the FA of Southern Belle -- Coz has just added some nice details to that -- and on to Caylor's disasterous whipper (more details). Thank you all.
(Of course your photo also proves you cheat: Those shoes, the new sticky rubber. Aha! What did the consensus boil down to: a whole number grade easier than in EBs? -- Kidding you here...ok? OK! :)
Let's jump to the end of your post. You ask: Is climbing really all about accessiblity these days?
No, not all about, far from it.
We keep honoring the height of inaccessible, of which Southern Belle is the gold standard.
But we added a choice. Growing Up is a more accessible climb. Still proud, but better protected. That doesn't make it "all about" anything but variety.
Finally there is some variety on the menu. "The most awesome free-climbable face in the Valley" now has a more accessible climb as well as a couple of oy-chingon! super spicy dishes.
Who's hungry?
|
|
moss hog
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
|
|
|
Apr 13, 2008 - 10:28pm PT
|
It seems that the two ethos brought to debate here are assigned different priorities by different folks. Environmental ethics and climbing style ethics both factor in (one hopes) to the decisions made by a first ascentionist party.
One can adhere to stringent style ethics that may necessitate more severe environmental impact (e.g. through placing bolt ladders or scarring rock). Alternatively, one can sacrifice some style to minimize the environmental impact (e.g. by utilizing acquired knowledge to place fixed protection more efficiently).
It may seem that the best way to maintain allegiance to both of these ideologies would be to place ground up routes with absolutely minimal protection. But then a third consideration must be addressed: how many bolts permanently drilled into a pristine Yosemite landmark can be justified for the recreation of a handful of elite climbers?
I shudder at the thought that any climber (or group thereof) would ever have to justify that sort of needless impact to the public, the Park Service, or anyone who values land preservation over their wee mortal rectitude.
PS: Coz - I would like to threaten you, if the offer stands. Where can I sign up?
|
|
Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
|
|
|
Apr 13, 2008 - 10:33pm PT
|
Took my daughter up to Lone Pine this weekend. Camped in Tuttle Creek campground, bouldered in the Alabama Hills, and hiked up to the Stonehouse on the South Face of Lone Pine Peak. What a magical place !!! Around the campfire in the evenings, I read about many of the first ascents in the So Face Lone Pine Peak area by Norman Clyde, Fred Becky, and Bruce Binder. I was really inspired !! I suppose if I saw these guys posting up on this thread I'd be a little more inclined to give a sh#t. If the same kind of route was put up on the South Face of Lone Pine Peak would it attract this kind of attention ??? Why does Yosemite have to be so damn sacred ?????
Cracko
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Apr 13, 2008 - 10:34pm PT
|
Moss hog:
I suspect the line is pretty short.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Apr 13, 2008 - 11:06pm PT
|
I confident the flared tempers are just that and trust in the better angels of all those posting on this thread.
This route couldn't be SO simple. It was a fine weekend in Yosemite. Seems like there's a fair amount of fame-notoriety in doing the second ascent of such a fine line, it would be the first on-sight.
Isn't that plump enough a prize to rate a hike to an alleged fine, fine line? Who's gonna throw down and give us the low down?
Peace
Karl
|
|
moss hog
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
|
|
|
Apr 13, 2008 - 11:08pm PT
|
Whoa, wait a minute - I never asked if I could FIGHT you! Jeez, now I'm scared too!
I was just charmed by the idea of the prearranged threat you had offered in a previous post. We El Portalians are always searching for novel ways to vent aggression while minimizing violence and hurt feelings.
Though I haven't lived there permanently for some time now, I hope we can all work together to keep El Portal taco night a safe and family-oriented environment.
PS my real name is Amy
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Apr 13, 2008 - 11:29pm PT
|
So Amy (Moss Hog)? This was your reply up-thread to Coz.
"PS: Coz - I would like to threaten you, if the offer stands. Where can I sign up?"
Sounds pretty threatening to fight to me.
Can't blame Coz for his reaction.
You aren't his ex gf are you?
|
|
Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
|
|
|
Apr 13, 2008 - 11:43pm PT
|
After reading the posts this evening I'm convinced......people get over yourselves !!!! This is nothing short of a Fing Soap Opera with the predictable "drama queens" competing for the Emmy !!! Coz, I don't know you, but be proud of what you have accomplished and Fing move on !!!! This is a no win situation!!
Like I tell my students constantly, the best response is no response. In the end, people will remember this!!!!
|
|
Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
|
|
|
Apr 14, 2008 - 12:04am PT
|
"One can adhere to stringent style ethics that may necessitate more severe environmental impact (e.g. through placing bolt ladders or scarring rock)."
This is not the biggest environmental impact, as people have expressed time and time again. The biggest impact comes from extra trails, social, sanctioned, whatever they are, and those come with hand in hand with more climbers.
Climbers flock to burly yet 'safe'* climbs like lambs to the slaughter. I'm not saying burly yet 'safe' climbs shouldn't exist - none of us can say that, for Chrissake, who owns nature? - but isn't that something people should consider when putting climbs and advertising them?
*"Rock Climbing, Ice Climbing and Mountaineering are dangerous and hazardous by their very nature. It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser or user of any climbing equipment to get proper instruction and to act safely and with caution while using this equipment."
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Apr 14, 2008 - 12:50am PT
|
Coz wrote
"Karl, you can not do the first ascent of a rap job or a second ascent. Those guys never did an ascent.
Growing up is not a climb in my book."
Is it only rap bolting that denies a route the status of "climb?" If we are going to play like that a clear list of "Cardinal Sins" that could result in removal would be in order.
Like since Bridwell used constructive scaring to make Freestone a free climb from the beginning, does that keep it from being a "climb" or does "ground up" protect it. What about siege climbing, seems to reduce the adventure into manageable bits doesn't it?
It all seems Taliban to me but ya'll have devoted yourselves to it more than I so your say is important.
Peace
Karl
|
|
moss hog
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
|
|
|
Apr 14, 2008 - 01:15am PT
|
Domingo wrote "This is not the biggest environmental impact, as people have expressed time and time again. The biggest impact comes from extra trails, social, sanctioned, whatever they are, and those come with hand in hand with more climbers."
And I agree completely; however, my point was tangential to that one.
Consider we are discussing first ascents in a National Park, where visitors are prohibited from taking so much as a pinecone, or leaving so much as an apple core.
Climbers, by some inscrutable clause, are allowed to permanently install visible metal hardware on the very formations the Park originated to protect.
A route with 50 bolts on it that sees two ascents comes out to (let me get my calculator...) 12.5 pieces of permanent metal hardware per visitor.
While I don't argue that those bolts will ruin the majesty of Yosemite Valley for the throngs of visitors or even have any significant impact on the surrounding ecosystem, I do think it is a liberty afforded our relatively unappreciated user group that we should not take lightly.
This luxury will not likely be availed to fisherman (take home 12.5 trout each) or hikers (leave 12.5 pieces of litter behind) anytime in the future.
The application of this for new routes is as follows:
If one is going to permanently alter the geologic formations of a sanctuary because of special license afforded one's user group, how many stand to benefit from this profiteering besides oneself?
PS In response to Werner's questions:
While for the male species, the notion of "threat" is singularly and intimately linked to fighting, for the female species, there are vast and myriad potential variants of "threat". Examples include (but are not limited to): blackmail, child support, slander and sexually transmitted diseases.
I am speaking generally here, of course. I intend none of these for a man I am pretty sure I never even dated.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Apr 14, 2008 - 01:21am PT
|
Mein Got! A person who tells it like it is! A lady in this case.
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
|
Apr 14, 2008 - 01:24am PT
|
Karl,
> Seems like there's a fair amount of fame-notoriety in doing the second ascent of such a fine line, it would be the first on-sight.
I could be wrong, but a careful reading of Doug's article suggests that a continuous ascent of the route may not have been done yet, either:
"Sarah and Sean fire the redpoint of the upper wall on July 28th at 5.11d."
This suggests to me that they may have rapped in to the upper wall and then climbed out free. Or maybe aided through a couple of cruxes on the lower pitches and done it continuously; it's not clear from the description.
Would Sean or Doug care to clarify this?
|
|
Bodyboarder
Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
|
|
|
Apr 14, 2008 - 02:16am PT
|
Is this still going on? I've been checking every hundred posts or so, and there hasnt been anything new since like the 50th post, you guys just keep repeating yourselves.
|
|
Sean Jones
climber
|
|
|
Apr 14, 2008 - 03:18am PT
|
Scott,
I blew my top when I saw that someone hiding behind some nick name, from my own town was going off about chopping. I blew my F#ucking top. I never threatened you personally ever.
Upon breathing and thinking a bit, I responded and said I was sorry. Tried to get back ahold of the real me and calm down. Everyone else responded like a bunch of grown ups and you're now ranting and raving about fighting.
Why in the F#ck do you hate me so much ? As I said before, I would never start some F#cking post up about you or anyone else.
Maybe we should sit down over a couple beers and talk this one out. I'll be in L.A. soon on buisiness and will go out of my way to meet with you if you think we can pull it off without turning into a couple of as#@&%es and beating the F#ck out of each other.
Peace,
Sean.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!