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uli__
climber
Milan, Italy
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@healyje
You perceive many defensor of the '70 bolting?
two cases:
a) you need to register your perception
b) we need to study more English
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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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@healyje
The bolts in the photos speak plainly and are not in any way "wrong accusations"; they are indelible statements of truth which cannot be denied or rationalized away by any means. I wonder if you can distinguish the difference between facts, and opinions.
The bolts in the photos are facts.
To call them atrocities, insane, vandalism, future killers, and so on are accusatory opinions and personal interpretations.
They are accusatory opinions and personal interpretations, which come from ignorance and narrow vision as far as climbing history and ethics evolution concern.
Has already been said that, during the time of the Compressor's route, other bolt ladders were used to force a way towards the summit.
To state that Maestri's bolts were "unnecessary by anybody’s standards, even those from back in 1970", as Garibotti said, it's just wrong, because there are several examples of bolt ladders during the sixties and seventies, in US or the Alps, used to force the way towards the end of a wall.
And nobody promoted a crusade against them.
Furthermore, the Garibotti's gang is surely unaware of the ice conditions of the wall, of the struggle and the required use of "pressure" (not expansion) bolts to pull up a weight of maybe 1000 kiloes, etc.
It's too easy to condemn the past achievements, using modern standard, knowledge and technology as a reference, and with this to justify a disputable chopping action.
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uli__
climber
Milan, Italy
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@enzolino
you articulated too much, these yankees are manichean:
right or wrong, black or white...
they simply cant' conceive that it could have been both a mistake to bolt the route in that way then and to unbolt the same route in that way today. such concept is out of their simple dual state binary logic
pity them
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Ensolino wrote: To state that Maestri's bolts were "unnecessary by anybody’s standards, even those from back in 1970", as Garibotti said, it's just wrong, because there are several examples of bolt ladders during the sixties and seventies, in US or the Alps, used to force the way towards the end of a wall.
Ensolino...it's ok if Americans place bolt ladders...what is hard to understand about that? :-)
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uli__
climber
Milan, Italy
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The yanks with more nuanced views got bored with the discussion long ago.
that maybe, it is unfortunate that they choose not to share their thinking as we are starting to believe that every yank is simpleminded.
Why are you still discussing this?
agreed, 'll try to refrain next time
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Handjam Belay
Gym climber
expat from the truth
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This thread was dead 800 posts ago...
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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If'n you Ah-talian boys start callin' any of them good ol' boys from the South "Yankees" y'all might find yourselves starin' into an open can of Whoop-Ass.
Cuz they ain't gonna be as po-lite as that Canadian guy, Anders the Mighty Hiker.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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ENZOLINO WROTE:
"The bolts in the photos speak plainly and are not in any way "wrong accusations"; they are indelible statements of truth which cannot be denied or rationalized away by any means."
I wonder if you can distinguish the difference between facts, and opinions.
The bolts in the photos are facts.
To call them atrocities, insane, vandalism, future killers, and so on are accusatory opinions and personal interpretations.
They are accusatory opinions and personal interpretations, which come from ignorance and narrow vision as far as climbing history and ethics evolution concern.
Has already been said that, during the time of the Compressor's route, other bolt ladders were used to force a way towards the summit.
To state that Maestri's bolts were "unnecessary by anybody’s standards, even those from back in 1970", as Garibotti said, it's just wrong, because there are several examples of bolt ladders during the sixties and seventies, in US or the Alps, used to force the way towards the end of a wall.
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The flaw in the reasoning above is that it fails to acknowledge the qualatative difference between a few bolt ladders on El Cap (for the Nose - before the pendy into the Stovelegs, the one off Texas Flake, and the final headwall), and the indiscriminate, superfluous machine gun bolting on Cerro Torre.
All bolting and bolt ladders are not equal, just like all blonds and Americans and Venezuelans are not equal. Contrasting the compressor bolt ladders to the Nose, or other routes in the Dolomites and elsewhere, is not a convincing argument. Calling CM's original bolt epic on the Torre, in 1970, a form of vandalism is not and was not purely opinion, but reflects the general opinion and values of "fair means" climbing understood by most every climber the world over.
JL
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neversummer
Trad climber
30 mins. from suicide USA
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Nice one JL......
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uli__
climber
Milan, Italy
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@Largo
or other routes in the Dolomites
have you ever been in Dolomites? how many routes of that time did you repeat?
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Uli wrote:
you articulated too much, these yankees are manichean:
right or wrong, black or white...
they simply cant' conceive that it could have been both a mistake to bolt the route in that way then and to unbolt the same route in that way today. such concept is out of their simple dual state binary logic
I agree. Because K&K only removed about 100 of the 450 bolts and they used some of Maestri's bolts on their descent for rappel anchors, they didn't 'erase' the route, but simply made a statement that they didn't like the Compressor Route being on the mountain.
If they wanted to make a real statement, they should have taken the time to remove all the bolts and tat and clean Maestri's route completely off of Cerro Torre.
I understand where K&K are coming from. They didn't like the Compressor Route being on Cerro Torre. But, only removing 100 of the 450 bolts says to me that they had some anger, but not the drive to do the whole job.
If you want to erase the route, remove it all.
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Snorky
Trad climber
Carbondale, CO
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I don't think I'd need to preserve a bad-style route to remember that I don't like that style anymore than I'd need to preserve a blister on my hand to remember the lesson of not touching a hot stove. I'd be glad I learned that lesson, would remember how I learned it, and be glad the blister was gone. And I don't think this is arrogant.
...
And if this analogy were anything close to appropriate, it would have to be more like removing a blister from the hand of a third party which was put there by a second party, who wishes it would stay on that other person's hand so that they can remember to not burn other people's hands.
Priceless!
bhilden wrote: "only removing 100 of the 450 bolts says to me that they had some anger, but not the drive to do the whole job."
Actually, it was more like 125, and that's not bad for a day's work, after climbing the thing in 13 hours. They removed a helluva lot more than Maestri was able to on his own descent. And why do they have to remove every bolt to have a positive impact? It may not be minimally bolted yet, but it's a great start. Trail maintenance happens incrementally.
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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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I can see that on some issues is not possible to find an agreement.
For me if you make holes on the wall your are "bending" the rock to your level.
And that's true for many modern aid routes as well.
That's for me is a bad style. Period.
It has been used on the Nose, on many other routes and on Cerro Torre.
But the style doesn't tell the whole story.
Beside the style, there is the epic of the ascent. The Compressor route and the Nose are two epic climbs, realized by two stubborn, rebel, anarchic, outreageous, badass climbers. Therefore, in my opinion they don't deserve to be chopped just because some people don't like the style.
Is a fact that people have a different view on the Compressor and many other routes. And perhaps agreement will never be found. No big deal.
There are "top" and "bottom", patagonian and non patagonian climbers who have opposite view on this issue.
But then, in case of a controversy, who has to decide?
I have an opinion.
And my opinion is that ultimately the locals (not necessarily the residents) have to decide.
There was a fight already in 2007 in El Chalten about chopping the Compressor. Afterwards they attempted to decide with a vote. Garibotti said it was a little more than a farse. But it's definetively better than a decision taken by two boys taken during the ascent. For me this is f * # k i n g arrogant! The fact that they are persona non grata in El Chalten suggests even more how unwelcome was their decision according to most of the locals.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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The underlying questions are the extent to which climbers ought to alter the natural environment (locally and globally) in their adventures, and how that should be decided. And the importance of symbolism. None of them easy questions, let alone with easy answers. The kind of stuff that murcy wrestles with, maybe.
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BirdDog
Trad climber
CA
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Well this thread has brought me out of long time lurking. I’m just a lowly CA trad climber who has never been to Patagonia and at my age, if I get there it will be as a trekker and not as a climber. So feel free to ignore my comments.
A lot has made about whether there was a consensus for keeping the route or chopping it. I agree with Dingus above. Even without considering the legitimacy of the 2007 El Chalten meeting, it seems to me that the consensus of the climbers that attempted the route (I’m guessing easily in the many hundreds) was to keep it since no one chopped it over the last 40+ years. These climbers voted with their time, physical effort and financial commitment to climb the route. Now some who have previously been on the route may have changed their mind and believe it should have been chopped. But they had the opportunity to try the climb before changing their mind. That option has been removed for all future climbers by K&K.
I find some of the comparisons for the Compressor to be hilarious. Let’s see, it’s either the Berlin Wall or Dr. Mengele! I guess that makes any climber who ever tried to climb the route equivalent to an East German border guard or a Nazi death camp guard since if you’ve attempted the route, you clearly aided and abetted this crime against alpinism.
Now I don’t think K&K are bad guys or even evil Nazis :). I do think they made a poor decision. I can see the other side. But a route that has been around for 40+ years, attempted by hundreds of climbers, many attempts before they were even born, probably should have had a little more thought involved regarding the chopping than a decision made on the summit.
Just my 2c. Now back to lurking.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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I am in Coyhaique, Chile on my way home. Quite the fuss. I haven't had a chance to read many of the posts but will when I return. The "historical" angle is interesting.....gee, 50 year old soda pop cans in Yosemite can't be removed at facelift because they're historical. There is good history and bad history and the "historical label" alone doesn't necessarily suffice as justification for somethings existence. The historical credentials of the CR on CT are, if anything, a BIG negative. Maestri lied about the 1959 route and then he came back years later with a compressor and enough rope and co-conspirators to force his way up the World's most beautiful mountan in a truly dispicable manner. The 1959 route (had it been done) would have been the greatest climb in history given the time and the conditions. The contrast between the two climbs is (I mean would have been) astonishing.
My feelings about the route are no secret but I always felt that the Argentinian climbers should be the ones to deal with it. Perhaps the seductive draw of the the CR gave them pause. The route certainly did attract people from all over the Globe. There has been quite a LOT of uneccessary bolting in the massif aside from the CR. Bolts at belays where they are not needed, bolts next to cracks etc. The stunning beauty of the mountains and the purity of the water and the air make Patagonia a place like no other. Maybe we should be more respectful when we climb these sublime peaks.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Here here, Jim.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Here here, Jim.
Or, perhaps in this case, "There there, Jim"
Hear Hear!
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