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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Feb 14, 2017 - 06:15pm PT
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I can imagine that this program could predict, almost word for word, the responses of those more prolific posters to some (any) hypothetical question. Just a thought...
That would be great! Then we could get on with other affairs.
I have seen posts here called predictable, but have yet to see one predicted.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Feb 14, 2017 - 06:18pm PT
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There are many good partial answers to the question, "What is Mind?" unless, as in the now OP, you choose to exclude material evidence.
Hear, hear! Some of my best friends are material.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Feb 14, 2017 - 07:23pm PT
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I think Wayne's post are good at grounding the many thought balloons left to the wind here. C'mon Jim, you're a trad climber, I'm a trad climber. What the hell does this mean?
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Feb 14, 2017 - 07:47pm PT
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Wayno: I'm not as smart as a lot of you guys and I don't know how to argue my point.
Sure you are smart enough, at least in your own way. Everyone has something to offer. It’s a conversation. What you struggle to articulate may have well passed everyone else’s notice. This seems to be a crux in all of our lives. What do *you* see? If you buy lock-stock-and-barrel into the notion that only objective data are worth talking about, then sure. . . . you may well have a problem.
A highly experienced academic that I worked with at Santa Clara University called the research game “an arcane ballet” (if you mean to publish). I thought that was insightful: the objective research game is something that one can excel in beautifully—and it’s also almost irrelevant.
Whatever it is that you are and do, make it yours. I’m into an artistic life. No one can say you are wrong, . . . ever. Be who you cannot help but be.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Feb 14, 2017 - 08:25pm PT
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Nice post Jim!
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 14, 2017 - 09:06pm PT
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the human experience will never be resolved through science, philosophy or spiritualism.
Those three working together WILL resolve the human experience ......
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Feb 14, 2017 - 10:33pm PT
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"Spirituality tries to offer salvation through belief in a better life, if you put all of your trust in Faith."
Nice construct ! what is spirituality? Sounds like you are mixing spirituality with religion. IMO Religion is mostly based on belief systems and spirituality is mostly based on personal experience. You could have a spiritual experience doing physics or climbing etc. etc. .
And then you can deconstruct the spiritual experience ; what is it? No, not neurons doing their thing; that is an explanation. what is it?
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Scott Tracy
Trad climber
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Feb 15, 2017 - 04:32am PT
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Our minds think thoughts, or word. Our infinite and creative thoughts,which we are all constantly creating, go out into an infinite and creative universal medium. Thought is first cause behind all creation or manifestation.
Coexistent with thought is a law. This law always accepts our thought good, bad or indifferent. We can steer ourselves in any direction. It only knows to accept or obey. At any moment we can change our situation through our thought first.
To me, we are all individualized, god like or universally spiritual,beings.
I am who I am and where I am today through my own thought first, then made manifest.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Feb 15, 2017 - 08:15am PT
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Scott Tracy:
From my side, I’ve been surprised at how ineffectual willfulness is. The “thought” that you laud can be just like feeling . . . just something that passes through you.
Jim: Spirituality tries to offer salvation through belief in a better life, if you put all of your trust in Faith.
Your science girlfriend sounds honest and fair. I’d be inclined to trust her.
The notion of “a better life,” is interesting. Could you say what “a better life” is beyond a set of vague generalities? Would you be looking for less pain and suffering, no conflict, all people loving one another, a more equal distribution of wealth and power, more material goods, or other objectives? It’s not that I question your objectives but I question how a polarity could exist or be without its opposite (definitionally). If every meal was a feast, would any of them be a feast? Could there be a good or right without its opposite?
I can imagine this sounds a bit insane, but I’d say there is plenty of value in chaos, destruction, death, self-serving behavior, pain and suffering.
As for putting trust in faith, . . . faith would seem to be synonymous with trust, doesn’t it? Beyond that, most everything that we think exists we do so via faith that we have in what others have told us. The amount of things that one’s actually experienced repeatedly, systematically, closely, with care, are likely a very short set of things. All the rest one relies upon trust in what others have told us, and then we have faith that those others are right.
And around and around we go . . . from faith and trust to what is right and good.
It’s possible to skip all that bullsh*t and just live in direct experience candidly. It’s a groundless existence, and surprisingly freeing. That’s where all the talking about attachment and aversion come from.
(Right on, PSP.)
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Scott Tracy
Trad climber
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Feb 15, 2017 - 08:52am PT
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We all act as well as think but the thought I was explaining always comes first. When we let thoughts pass through and dismiss them or say no to them, the law I mention will then dismiss them or say no to them.
For example,if I were to wish you and I good health, wealth and happiness with a conviction in a good spiritual sense, I believe that is what we would get.
I am no expert at this, but I believe it to true. I have more errors in thinking than you can shake a stick at. When I think of poverty, lack or suffering that is what I get as well.
High Fructose: It appears I got under more than your skin. Tell me more.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Feb 15, 2017 - 09:14am PT
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And then you can deconstruct the spiritual experience ; what is it? No, not neurons doing their thing; that is an explanation. what is it?
A deep feeling of wonder, mystery, gratitude, connection with other people and creatures and everything.
And without neurons doing their thing, you won't feel it or be able to say anything about it.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Feb 15, 2017 - 09:28am PT
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And without neurons doing their thing, you won't feel it or be able to say anything about it.
And without mind, consciousness, self awareness doing its thing neurons would be irrelevant and unknown.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 15, 2017 - 09:35am PT
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And without the living being itself you wouldn't even exist to being with what to speak of the gross physical and subtle physical material hardware of the material bodies;
Mind, brain, self-awareness, neurons, etc and material bodies are impossible to exist period without the soul the actual person within all material bodies as sentient conscious beings that drive the material bodies.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Feb 15, 2017 - 09:48am PT
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I don't want to live forever...
You have the equivalent of a (50-something) motivation chip in your nervous system that generates this sentiment. Emerging high tech may soon discover a way to "reconfigure" one or more "pins" on this "chip" of yours and then, just that fast, your sentiment could change. Reflecting a new, refreshed Dingus, it could be...
Wow, I can't believe I said that!!
a new, refreshed Dingus...
Now that would be something!
...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Transhumanist_Wager
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Scott Tracy
Trad climber
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Feb 15, 2017 - 09:49am PT
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Agree.
Mind or conscientiousness is back and behind all things physical.
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Scott Tracy
Trad climber
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Feb 15, 2017 - 10:06am PT
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I will gladly stand as another smoking duck.
Try reading the Science of Mind by Holmes. He explains it best to me.
By the way, I do not subscribe to any specific religious sect or order.
Just my own observations.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Feb 15, 2017 - 10:23am PT
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"I will gladly stand as another smoking duck."
Though it's the 21st century, we live in a culture (still) in which it is as if some think it's a strength - or a freedom - to not have a science education background to constrain the (wild if not out of control) thinking and to compel an evolutionary mechanistic, naturalistic way of thinking (here on this thread in regards to the mind-brain relationship). But make no mistake, others see it as a weakness.
Sorry but not sorry.
...
AI isn't coming for our jobs, it's coming for our planet and will one day 'colonise the galaxy'
http://www.wired.co.uk/article/jurgen-schmidhuber-artificial-intelligence-very-deep-learning
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Scott Tracy
Trad climber
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Feb 15, 2017 - 10:45am PT
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I'm not sure if science alone can come up with an answer to everyones liking. But I do know that I do not want 21st century science to come up with a way to constrain my mind or perhaps anyone elses way of thinking.
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