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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Feb 13, 2017 - 06:18pm PT
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I'm with Jim and Wayno, I hope. You don't need to know what mind is or how senses work in order to make good use of them.
If you need to know who you are before you make a move, you are in the camp of hermeneutics, where you have all kinds of questions to ask before you can interpret a text.
It all makes work for the working man, whether chef or philosopher.
edit:
Of the senses humans have I was thinking of the sense of balance, Wayno. It is one you are not as directly aware of as you are of what you touch or smell or taste, but it is a sense. It turns angular and linear accelerations of your head into nerve impulses.
But the real question was a follow-up to your own. If we did have other senses, how would our knowledge and discussion become less limited?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 13, 2017 - 06:59pm PT
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The sticking point for you is you don't see that awareness is on a continuum with what my cat does. You make a problem where there is none. Awareness is absolutely not a "problem" for me. It is an emergent property that is the result of evolution on this planet. What's the big deal?
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As has been mentioned many times on this thread, human consciousness is private, only directly accessible to the person who has it. The above is derived entirely from a 3rd person perspective based on external observation of things and phenomenon. Of course "awareness" is not a problem for you because you are not even looking at it. You're looking at your cat.
The big deal is that you have conflated mind, an emergent property of the brain, which organizes the incohate stuff of experience (the X's and 0's to use a computer analogy), and awareness, which we DO share with your cat and ever other entity that flickers with some modicum of consciousness. The difference between the consciousness of your cat and your own consciousness is that the cat doesn't have the higher level capacities of your human mind, so it doesn't enjoy the subtlety and dept of experience that you do.
But I can appreciate the impulse of you and others to scramble around trying to peg awareness to the brain. But if you should ever be bothered to stop stop starting at your cat (or anything external) for a moment and witness your own awareness, between thoughts or other input from your mind, you will find that every category and quality you now ascribe to it is entirely missing. So what about it is "evolved?" Nada, amigo. Find out for yourself.
Ed asked an interesting question, and that is how might some thing morph into or in some way relate to nothing. This short video goes a ways in that direction per what the physicist mentions re "open space."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgpvCxDL7q4
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Feb 13, 2017 - 07:17pm PT
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Krishnamurti is a mayavadi impersonalist.... Even an atheist is better off than a mayavadi impersonalist ......
This actually speaks volumes and it is why those who do NOT support theism need to keep the charge.
We need to change this climate... where this kind of talk is okay... where this kind of talk goes unanswered.
It's a space where the room for improvement, or for progress, is obvious.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Feb 13, 2017 - 07:36pm PT
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Nothing has changed or become more complicated in humans understanding humans since then ?
Much has changed but up is still up and down is still down and so on. The religious proclivity in philosophy belongs to those that would diminish the role of humanity as sinful and unworthy and no more significant than a beetle: read your bible.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 13, 2017 - 07:45pm PT
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But let's return to the issue of pure awareness - especially in regards to Healyje's philosophical position that awareness is a mind state that is inexorably tied to content.
It is a state of mind, however, the bits in bold are wholly your projection and nothing I said or think. So maybe stop doing exactly that sort of bullshit and just speak your own mind.
blah, blah, blah...Even if one has no thoughts or perceptions there is still a naked awareness... blah, blah, blah
Well, frigging duh! Are we still rehashing and restating the obvious this far along? Oh and I'm guessing one of us has spent way, way more 12-hour stretches in sensory deprivation tanks than the other and it isn't you.
blah, blah, blah... -- there is a quality there that is self-aware of itself, of its own emptiness (no content)... blah, blah, blah
And that, specifically, is what makes it a state - a state of self-awareness (that is, unless you're going to squawk and complain that self is just more 'content'). Again, coming out of an unconscious state, job one is self-locating and self-identifying - that does not involve 'content' and until that's done you are neither conscious, in 'possession' of a mind nor aware. As I said earlier, an elongated version of that process can be seen in newborns which is actually fairly fascinating.
State, by definition, is "any of various conditions characterized by definite quantities."
Nonsense. State, by definition is a "mode or condition of being" - note the complete absence of properties, quantities and content.
The sticking point for most people is that pure awareness is non- conceptual, and so you have Healyje scrambling to paint it this color or that and functionally attribute "it" to something observable or at any rate, conceptual. An evolved something. But in doing so, he has already arrived at the game too late, once qualities have already arisen IN awareness.
Again, you are a veritable marvel at putting words in other people's mouths that they didn't say in order to then shoot down your own words. Super annoying and bordering on an unhinged form of debate. And somewhat sadder in that is the fact we are basically saying the same thing once one plows through the meditation 101 drivel and the semantics.
Check it out: when you boot up from an unconscious state (there's that nasty word again) there are no 'quantities' and there is no content. There is only a mind grasping for awareness, i.e. NO-THING is happening or present other than the process of self-location and self-identification. Until that process is complete and the mind has achieved [pure] awareness, there is literally no place for 'quantities' or content. Once the mind reaches a state of awareness there is then a stage for all the shite you love to try and shuffle to the side and thread in-between in order to snatch fleeting glimpses of that pure initial state of awareness.
Crikey, and this is where we're at 14k posts later? Sigh.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Feb 13, 2017 - 08:39pm PT
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So why do you keep responding? In some venues this is called enabling, lol!
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You're something to look up to.
lol
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 13, 2017 - 09:22pm PT
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Healje, I can't fault your for your stubborn mindedness. You are probably closer than you think to getting clear on this. But let's look closely at what you are actually saying. We can work our way to clarity by unpacking this one bit at a time.
"There is only a mind grasping for awareness, i.e. NO-THING is happening or present other than the process of self-location and self-identification. Until that process is complete and the mind has achieved [pure] awareness, there is literally no place for 'quantities' or content. Once the mind reaches a state of awareness there is then a stage for all the shite you love to shuffle to the side and thread in-between in order to snatch fleeting glimpses of that pure initial state of awareness."
First, you are anything but clear about what you mean by the word "mind" in the above. As I have repeatedly said, these terms get conflated to the extent that even the most sincere views get hopelessly muddled, as happened in the above word salad.
That much said, I believe we have all had the experience you mention when we are startled from a deep sleep and for a moment or maybe more, we can't even remember who we are. "Who am I and where am I" needs to get quickly established because this is an ancient survival mechanism when that kind of response was needed around lions and tigers et al. Old and primitive stuff, for sure.
Now deconstruct the next bit - "the mind grasping for awareness."
If you go back to the experience we have all had of waking suddenly and forgetting who and where we are, you will quickly realize that what we are waiting for is for the ego (I am Healje) and memory (I am here and remember getting/being here) to boot up, NOT awareness. You don't fearfully ask: Where's my awareness? You have to first be aware to even ask that question. Awareness is not suddenly "found" and reinstated once you remember who you are and where you are. You have to first be aware BEFORE the content of fear arises, then the mind fumbles not for what is already there (awareness), but for what has been momentarily forgotten - you identity in time and space. Again, the fact that you DO soon become aware of who and where you are is a matter of content recognition, NOT the manifestation of awareness itself.
Next, let's look at your contention that open awareness is a "state" of being. In it's normal usage, any state of being refers to some qualitative aspect of content - a feeling tone, or at any rate some qualitative aspect that you can describe. Absent any qualitative aspect, what does the word "state' actually mean to you? And when you drop into the space between thoughts, or raw awareness, what quality do you find?
The bottom line here is that the "mind" does not reach a state of awareness. In the sway you are putting it, you are conflating becoming aware of some experiential content with awareness itself, or as I mentioned earlier, conflating content WITH awareness itself. The "pure, initial stage of awareness" does not become some different phenomenon once content appears within it, nor yet when the stuff (content0 you accuse me of shuffling around come and goes.
The reason I provided examples of what you presented was to make it clear how with a little close introspection, you don't have to guess at this stuff but can unpack it for yourself. But the fact is, until any of this is laid out in a clear model, the terms (mind, awareness, brain, consciousness, focus, attention, content, witnessing, observation) will all be conflated into a meaningless gumbo, and you end up basically with two bald men arguing over a comb.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Feb 13, 2017 - 09:31pm PT
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The difference between the consciousness of your cat and your own consciousness is that the cat doesn't have the higher level capacities of your human mind
Tsk, tsk.
These puffed-up humans.
But if you should ever be bothered to stop stop starting at your cat (or anything external) for a moment and witness your own awareness, between thoughts or other input from your mind, you will find that every category and quality you now ascribe to it is entirely missing. So what about it is "evolved?" Nada, amigo. Find out for yourself.
If you leave the cat out of it, this is all you need to say. No one can demonstrate that you are wrong, here.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Feb 13, 2017 - 09:32pm PT
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Ed asked an interesting question, and that is how might some thing morph into or in some way relate to nothing. This short video goes a ways in that direction per what the physicist mentions re "open space."
My understanding from the video is that "empty space" is not completely empty, for it has a slight temperature and indications of particles, etc.
I don't think of raw awareness as being entirely nothing, for if it were the absence of everything we would not be able to discuss it. Yes, I know, the map and not the territory - of which raw awareness has only infinitesimal acreage.
(A positive infinitesimal is smaller than any positive real number . . . you get the idea)
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Feb 13, 2017 - 09:58pm PT
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I just like all people in the most abrasive way possible.
Well then, you're no doubt somebody to look up to as well.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 13, 2017 - 10:25pm PT
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Ed asked an interesting question, and that is how might some thing morph into or in some way relate to nothing. This short video goes a ways in that direction per what the physicist mentions re "open space."
not so unfamiliar for me... but I wonder if the implications of the discussion in that video are apparent, that is, while we may not "know" what the answer is, we have a basis for finding the answers.
For instance, the statement that since we know that General Relativity [GR] is wrong (which is contentious, but let this opinion stand) that the predictions of GR, in this case the singularity of the "Big Bang," may not be correct.
Of course, this doesn't mean that "anything" is possible, what is possible is highly constrained by what we know.
I liked the "thought experiment" of letting the universe expand so much that there is nothing there, this ending is referred to as "The Big Rip" because eventually (in 10¹⁰⁰ years) the expansion of the universe tears apart atoms and even smaller stuff...
But the universe is still filled with this "stuff" we refer to as Dark Energy which has made this happen.
We don't know what the Dark Energy is... but we have some ideas... and in the not-too-distant future we'll even map out its distribution in the visible universe, which will give some more clues.
This sort of nothing is nothing I know.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Feb 13, 2017 - 10:36pm PT
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Oh oh. Dark Energy. Here the Wizard may take us on a toboggan ride down the slippery slope of awareness and back into advanced physics. Hilbert space was not enough, nor were virtual particles. Does dark energy generate empty awareness?
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 13, 2017 - 11:31pm PT
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Of the senses humans have I was thinking of the sense of balance, Wayno. It is one you are not as directly aware of as you are of what you touch or smell or taste, but it is a sense. It turns angular and linear accelerations of your head into nerve impulses.
Sense of balance, yes, I remember you mentioning you were involved in some study of such. Interesting. I was wondering about the sense of something with eyes is watching me. There has to be something there.
But the real question was a follow-up to your own. If we did have other senses, how would our knowledge and discussion become less limited?
Good question, Andy. The simple answer would be: more data. But I think there might be more to it. One thing I have learned about our senses is that they can be trained and altered. In good ways and not so good ways. They become more acute with use and dulled from neglect. And then there is discernment and a higher degree of integration of the senses with awareness and motor function. And then there was that time I ate a whole handful of these little blue mushrooms... ...and I saw god and he told me to go ahead and throw up, you'l feel better.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 13, 2017 - 11:53pm PT
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Healje, I can't fault your for your stubborn mindedness. You are probably closer than you think to getting clear on this. But let's look closely at what you are actually saying. We can work our way to clarity by unpacking this one bit at a time.
I'd say I'm exactly as close as I think I am, no unpacking required.
First, you are anything but clear about what you mean by the word "mind" in the above. As I have repeatedly said, these terms get conflated to the extent that even the most sincere views get hopelessly muddled, as happened in the above word salad.
Trust me, you're the salad-master on this thread and I'm still not sure how it is that clear simple words can so escape you. And I'm not conflating anything, but rather saying exactly what I'm intending to say. What's getting muddled is you because you happen to have a different lexicon on the topic and somehow think that lexicon is some sort of descriptive gold standard on the matter - it isn't.
Now deconstruct the next bit - "the mind grasping for awareness."
If that phrase needs any deconstructing then we're in deep sh#t here.
If you go back to the experience we have all had of waking suddenly and forgetting who and where we are, you will quickly realize that what we are waiting for is for the ego (I am Healje) and memory (I am here and remember getting/being here) to boot up, NOT awareness.
I would disagree. I would say for the most part that ego and memory are content on the stage - probably the first content to hit the stage, but content nonetheless.
You don't fearfully ask: Where's my awareness? You have to first be aware to even ask that question
My point exactly - until the mind self-locates and self-identifies there is no such question because you're not aware and any such question is irrelevant as are all things ego and memory.
Awareness is not suddenly "found" and reinstated once you remember who you are and where you are. You have to first be aware BEFORE the content of fear arises, then the mind fumbles not for what is already there (awareness), but for what has been momentarily forgotten - you identity in time and space. Again, the fact that you DO soon become aware of who and where you are is a matter of content recognition, NOT the manifestation of awareness itself.
Hmmm, you have what I'm saying exactly ass-backwards, but I see your confusion.
When I say self-locating and self-identifying I don't mean anything whatsoever to do with ego, memory and other content-level constructs. In computer-speak those would be like loading the operating system (ego) and software and data (memory) after the firmware boot. I'm speaking at a lower and more fundamental level and my use of the phrase 'becoming aware' has a very limited scope relative to establishing a stable coherence of mind, i.e. a state of awareness. All the rest - your hobgoblins of content such as ego and memories - are just that, content loaded after the fact. Ya gotta be up before you can load any of that shite.
The bottom line here is that the "mind" does not reach a state of awareness. In the way you are putting it, you are conflating becoming aware of some experiential content with awareness itself, or as I mentioned earlier, conflating content WITH awareness itself. The "pure, initial stage of awareness" does not become some different phenomenon once content appears within it, nor yet when the stuff (content0 you accuse me of shuffling around come and goes.
Muddled. Yes the 'mind' very much does reach a state of awareness in the way I'm putting it - again, that is a state of stable coherence which has nothing whatsoever to do with content in any form. Your meditation is very much about trying to shuffle all the content aside, thread your way through it, or suspend it all together such that what you're left with is simply that base, stable coherence of mind - a state of pure awareness.
The reason I provided examples of what you presented was to make it clear how with a little close introspection, you don't have to guess at this stuff but can unpack it for yourself. But the fact is, until any of this is laid out in a clear model, the terms (mind, awareness, brain, consciousness, focus, attention, content, witnessing, observation) will all be conflated into a meaningless gumbo, and you end up basically with two bald men arguing over a comb.
The arrogance aside, I don't need a little close introspection, I'm not guessing, and don't need to unpack anything. Quite the contrary, your meditative work trying to clear the content appears to have left you obsessed with it. And I don't need a model to understand what's going on - if anything your 'model' appears to be more a matter of you sorting your own "meaningless gumbo" so you can make sense of it. I personally think you're making it way, way too complicated and you're far too wedded to your own verbiage.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Feb 14, 2017 - 07:16am PT
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I think that healyje is doing a great job, personally.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 14, 2017 - 07:18am PT
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Every attempt at squaring this, vision, falls flat in the waking world of physics and biochemistry.
That's because yer all unaware ......
of the soul!
Without understanding the root, you fail as you've all failed and continue to fail, falsely identify the material body as the self ....
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 14, 2017 - 07:35am PT
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I don't want to live forever
Stoopid to say this since you have no clue who you really are.
And you are going to live forever whether you want to or not.
There is NO escape .....
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 14, 2017 - 07:58am PT
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Curious, does this live forever as well or is it just people?
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 14, 2017 - 07:59am PT
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my eternal soul is just going to have to be patient with me
There's no plural.
You are the eternal soul covered by your material body thinking "I am Dingus" according to the consciousness you've developed in this and your previous lives.
Just as a coat that wears out you throw it away and get a new one according to your means you've developed at that time.
The modern scientists stoopidly think they are the coat ......
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