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Chewbongka
climber
लघिमा
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Apr 13, 2008 - 12:15pm PT
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Sounds like Growing Up is about to go down.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 13, 2008 - 12:17pm PT
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"obviously Coz and Schultz were too far ahead of their time"
You mean there will be a time when routes like Southern Belle become daily doings?
No, I don't think so. Instead, Coz and Shultz and Walt were willing to risk it all for their route. There's nothing ahead of their time in that, people have been doing that for as long as people have climbed.
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Apr 13, 2008 - 12:37pm PT
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Warbler, those were some of the best points I've read...
Y'all know what RR said about Tis-a-ack...
bzzzt, bzzzt
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 13, 2008 - 12:51pm PT
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Ah quit your fuking whining.
Sean's pissed off now and if he says he's gonna ass kick, big fukin deal.
So what! People say all kinds of things, big fukin deal.
This whole thread is so much talk, blah blah blah.
They did it, go on with your lives or climb the thing.
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Apr 13, 2008 - 12:53pm PT
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u climb it first...tick the key holds...hahaha
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 13, 2008 - 12:59pm PT
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I second that about Warbler. Talk about helping us keep our keel in the water...
And Werner the Wise brings us back to Salathe's point:
"Vy don't ve just climb?"
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Ω
climber
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Apr 13, 2008 - 01:04pm PT
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Yeah Werner you tell them!!!
Screw all the anti rap bolters, most of them cant climb above 5.10 and Pass the Pitons has done way more damage to the rock with all his aid climbing that rap bolters ever had.
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jstan
climber
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Apr 13, 2008 - 01:55pm PT
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A brief side comment to start. What we now have here on ST is a
victory for civil discourse.
When I disagree violently with a person on topic A, by remaining civil I retain the possibility we will be able to work side by side when we agree passionately on topic B. Granted we have our share of pooh contests just for the enjoyment. But when something important comes up, the atmosphere becomes entirely serious.
In the absence of civil discourse, we have nothing.
Jeff has asked me to say something, possibly believing I can be persuasive. It is a hope only as the data to the contrary is quite extensive. One thing I learned during my time in industry was that when a person repeats what they just finished saying to me, it generally meant for some reason they needed me to believe them. A budget was the issue more often than not. I don't have a reason for needing anyone to believe me so I won't repeat what I have said. Once should be enough.
In the sixties and seventies I learned a rule of engagement in these things that I continue to follow. In such public questions it is inappropriate for an individual to proclaim they have the answer. The answer MUST be identified by the group of affected persons - all of us. Therein lies the incredible power of Roger Breedlove's
"Hypothesis". Nothing. Nothing advanced in this now longish thread is more than a hypothesis.
As each of you in turn approach old age, you may detect as I have, that there are individuals who are right more often than not. One of these has suggested we all leave the computer and go out and climb. To this excellent suggestion I would add the following. When you are 100 feet out and around a corner from your belayer and the crowd, where you can hear nothing but the breeze blowing over the rock, please do the following. Look at the rock. Look up at the sky. And then dig down very deeply to find the essential element, the core, of what makes you love this.
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Sean Jones
climber
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Apr 13, 2008 - 02:33pm PT
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Sorry if I came across so hard last night. I've been trying really hard to stay calm, sit back and think alot, then respond.
I blew that last night. I guess I'd better sit back some more, think some more. I really do feel the way I wrote but try not to go to war as opposed to try and resolve. Meet in the middle.
I've been married for years now and have gone to battle. That's why I was on the SF to begin with. I've seen us both throwing blows back and forth. Stabbing each others guts out with steely blades. Killing each other. And going nowhere but down from it. Not only us but everyone around us goes down too.
That's where the name Growing Up came from. From me spending alot of time out there and thinking. The route for me was originaly to be called Drama( that would have been perfect) another name I couldn't get away from was Pain Killer.
The only reason me and Maggie are still in the same house now, is from trying to grow up. to realize that we're not the same and don't need to be the same. There's room for her to be her and me to be me. The age old debates in climbing are just the same. Whether you like it or not.
Going down the face of 1/2 dome with a crow bar, ripping a bunch of holes in the wall in my eyes is the worst possible thing to do. Where does it stop ? We then need to go to Medlicott dome and rip apart Peace and a thousand more routes in the valley. And thousands more everywhere else.
I really don't need to kick anyones ass for that. You'll kick your own ass by doing so. Hero to a few and total fool to many.
Growing Up is far and away the best,most beautiful line I've ever climbed. I said before, If you want to do Southern Belle, Do SB. If you want to do GU, do GU. Peace or BY. It's all good.
Why try holding back the wave ?
You'll only drown in the changes.
You've gotta learn to let go.
just let go and experience the flight.
Try to see from a different side.
If balance is the key,
maybe we'll see
A future of understanding.
Peace,
Sean.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 13, 2008 - 02:38pm PT
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maybe this one too
Come gather 'round people
Wherever you roam
And admit that the waters
Around you have grown
And accept it that soon
You'll be drenched to the bone.
If your time to you
Is worth savin'
Then you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin'.
Come writers and critics
Who prophesize with your pen
And keep your eyes wide
The chance won't come again
And don't speak too soon
For the wheel's still in spin
And there's no tellin' who
That it's namin'.
For the loser now
Will be later to win
For the times they are a-changin'.
Come senators, congressmen
Please heed the call
Don't stand in the doorway
Don't block up the hall
For he that gets hurt
Will be he who has stalled
There's a battle outside
And it is ragin'.
It'll soon shake your windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'.
Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is
Rapidly agin'.
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'.
The line it is drawn
The curse it is cast
The slow one now
Will later be fast
As the present now
Will later be past
The order is
Rapidly fadin'.
And the first one now
Will later be last
For the times they are a-changin'.
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Sean Jones
climber
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Apr 13, 2008 - 02:43pm PT
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jstan
Nice post !
Today I'm taking 5 kids climbing. All less than 7 yrs. old. I'm very excited. The only thing we'll focus on is how to move over the rock and do so smoothly. To have fun,look around,realize how lucky we are and support each other.
Hope everyone else out there has a great day as well.
Again, sorry to get so pissed a couple posts ago.
I really hate fighting.
Sean.
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say-no-to-rap-bolting!
Trad climber
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Apr 13, 2008 - 03:08pm PT
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sean jones,
I am sorry I judged you after one post last night. That was foolish too.
your two last posts were very kind.You showed you are a wise man...
Many of my friends (would) rapbolt. I wouldn't, but we are still friends.
That I don't like your way of finishing that climb doesn't mean I think anything bad about you. If we meet some day, we'll have a couple of beers and discuss it after a day of climbing(GU?). I'll never chop it. I never thought about doing so.
I wish you a fantastic climbing day while it's getting dark here.
Ben Lepesant, Lux
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 13, 2008 - 04:01pm PT
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I Love you all. (I know that sounds squishy but f*#k it)
Given the history of past slagfests, I think we are Growing Up.
Respect to all
Peace
baba
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 13, 2008 - 04:51pm PT
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Just when things were getting spicy, you guys blew what could have been a great slag-fest. ;-(
Now all of a sudden you're sounding like a couple of S.N.A.G.s (Sensitive New-Age Guys).
I guess I'll now have to do the unthinkable...
(get off my fat ass and go climbing)
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divad
Trad climber
wmass
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Apr 13, 2008 - 06:24pm PT
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Some good points here from both sides of the coin. Some good calls for reason and stepping back to appreciate what's really important, also. I've been reluctant to add my 2 cents, mainly because I really, really like to avoid confrontations.
SO,YOU GOT A FUKIN PROBLEM WITH THAT?
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Apr 13, 2008 - 06:50pm PT
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K-man writes:
"You mean there will be a time when routes like Southern Belle become daily doings?
No, I don't think so. Instead, Coz and Shultz and Walt were willing to risk it all for their route. There's nothing ahead of their time in that, people have been doing that for as long as people have climbed."
Exactly my point, people have always been doing that, and routes once considered "way out there", climbable only by a few elite, become trade routes a few generations later.
The trouble with numbers is that Southern Belle, with its lowly grade of 5.12, really requires the skills of 5.14 climbers. If it were actually graded 5.14, nobody would be questioning why it wasn't more "accessible".
I say give the wall a sporting chance. I've been up there, seen it up close, and was probably the first one ever to climb 5.10 or harder on the South Face proper, and I'd even go as far as to say that from the top of the arch up, even with my old and fat ass, I'd be able to establish a new free route with enough time, fixed ropes, and unlimited supply of bolts. But I'd be robbing those who could climb it in better style. Is climbing really all about accessiblity these days?
Above: the pic of me (John Middendorf) free climbing during our attempt of the South Face back in 1986, angled a bit for clarity.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 13, 2008 - 07:43pm PT
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Wow - usually people rotate pics to make the terrain look steeper, knott the other way around...
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Brandon Lampley
Mountain climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 13, 2008 - 08:18pm PT
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I don't have an iron in this fire, and no cred to speak of either, but I am curious.
Doug Robinson wrote above:
"Yes, I am telling you, once again, that we couldn't stance and we couldn't hook. Couldn't, not wouldn't." ...and... "If we had judged that there were enough stances and enough hook placements to drill enough pro for our leading standards..."
So, could any lead protection have been drilled on lead? Could belays have been drilled on lead?
If the route genuinely couldn't have been put in ground up save a bolt ladder, the style Sean put it up in seems like the best.
Doug, you likely don't remember me, but I guided for MOS very briefly in the Bay area.
Brandon
It also seems to me that the boldest statement out there would be the ground up variation to the upper pitches. Somebody do it (out of my league and will always be).
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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Apr 13, 2008 - 08:50pm PT
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coz wrote:
"Sean,
I am not scared, but do you have to show the world what an A hole you are?
Your route may very likely disappear, and you are not going to stop anything with your threats.
Do you want to threaten me?
Scott Cosgrove"
coz, your post sounds like it is also a threat.
It seems to me that a better threat from the old school would be to say, "Bla bla bla GU. Bla bla SB. Bla bla bla rapbolt. Im going out there and flash your route and then put up one right next to it in the correct style."
Become the change you want to see in the world and show the world this is the way coz is and (?always?) has been.
IMHO. I think climbing cant afford big bolt wars. The rocks and the people have to live out this life together and the same for the climbers and the people. Pretty soon we might find that the people don't like bolts in their rocks. And the people might find that the climbers aren't able to manage their own sport and its impact on the worlds most beautiful places. I hope the climbers can keep it cool and figure out how to make it all work.
I also wanted to send Props to all the regulars on the taco show for posting in such a civil manner. You all have covered a lot of ground on this thread and kept it on course. I look forward to the future.
PEACE
Blair
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KyleO
Ice climber
Calgary, AB
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Apr 13, 2008 - 09:00pm PT
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Fatty,
Someone with such strong opinions must have high ethical standards and much climbing experience to be able to judge like you do. I wonder what your rock experience entails. Do share.
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