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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Cragman...There goes your free June Mt. pass...oops..!
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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1. A question for anyone about why there was not a formal search and rescue when Matt was reported missing, starting from his campsite? I can't get clear on why that wasn't a definite enough starting point.
2. A thought regarding "wild ideas and posts not based on facts". I think it is wonderful that Matt's family has asked for and is open to intuitive guidance re finding Matt. Maybe a couple out there ideas, but I don't think intuition should be discounted.
Ten years ago my family and I moved from one area to another in Riverside County, CA. Several days after we moved into new home my little cat Lya, (a stray originally from Phila.) disappeared. I was distraught and contacted a pet psychic. She said Lya is not dead, is not hurt and that I needed to keep walking the area (10 acres) and leave my scent and sound of my voice, etc. I checked in with her daily and she reported what she saw: a fence, cows, stream, etc. Each time she got an image, I walked to that area and called and called. Most of my friends thought I was crazy. After about three weeks I began to give up hope, but kept up the routine. After 4 weeks, one evening Lya nonchalantly walked in the front door.
Several years later another cat disappeared. Our horse, formally a wild mustang, communicated to me telepathically that she was killed by coyotes, looked in the direction, and then said it was instant. I contacted the same pet psychic and she said she got a clear sense of an aerial view and that Tara was peacefully experiencing things from a spirit body.
I believe we need to accept help in whatever form it comes.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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It's hard for those that haven't been there to comprehend the vastness and complex nature of the terrain.
A large talus slope is literally a "sea of holes" large enough to swallow an adult. You cold be standing on top of someone and never see them.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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[HighTraverse]
I will re-iterate: I don't think Matt would walk to the Ritter range from Shady Rest. That turns a long but reasonable day (for Matt) in the mountains into an epic. We know he didn't mind hitchhiking to get to a climb when his car was broken (his 2006 diary). He would have planned to get back in time for the shuttle bus return, or hitchhike back from the trailhead, or at last resort to even to walk back. I strongly suspect he either hitchhiked or had a pre-planned ride from Mammoth to at least Minarets Summit. If so, that person hasn't come forward. If that person were another traveler, on their way out of the Mammoth area any time before Matt was reported missing they likely haven't heard of his disappearance. (there are far more reasons such a person would NOT hear of Matt's plight than that they would).
[Phylp]
There have been a number of comments along the lines of "Matt couldn't have hitch-hiked because someone would have come forward by now". This strikes me as an unwarranted assumption. Besides HT's reasoning above, Any worker who doesn't speak English (and we have a lot here in CA), might have no idea Matt is missing. Any worker who is an undocumented alien (and we have a lot here in CA), might not come forward. And anyone with a criminal record of any kind, even if not serious, and completely innocent of any activity involving Matt, might not want to come forward and expose themselves to the scrutiny of being the last person to see Matt.
[Crankster]
I've often wondered if a foreign climber/tourist might have given Matt a ride and returned home, unaware he is missing. Is there a ST European version?
And of course cragman:)
Seems a majority of us agree on 1 key thing:
Matt got a ride to a trailhead either via a pre-planned ride or hitch hiking.
I agree with all of the thoughts expressed in the quotes above. Now I want to add some more thoughts.... There are a LOT of people in Mammoth that do not have internet and/or cable. Not sure if anyone is aware but up until about a week ago people were unable to open new internet accounts (for historical reference see local news articles about the 395 project). Companies were at capacity and my understanding is there was/is a long wait (not sure if this is still the case). The other issue is cost. Some people up there choose not to have those types of services due to cost (Most EVERYTHING cost an arm and a leg up there) and/or their lifestyle. If they need to use the internet they go to the library or places like the Looney Bean where this is free computer access.
I did run into people when in Mammoth the weekend of the 18th that are climbers/hikers that have been living in town for years. They did not know Matthew was missing. Again, these people don't surf the internet as they are either doing something in the outdoors or are eeeking out a living trying to work and they watch very little television.
We might want to think about alternative ways to get the word out around town. I saw lots of flyers when we were there, but not every place was covered and am not sure how many flyers are still around.
I think the odds of a mountain employee having given Matt a ride are right up there as well as a tourist from out of town/country.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Pacarockhound,
Others may answer this better, but I think the police did start their investigation with the campsite. I think the reason there wasn't a search starting from there was that whereas Matt went missing on July 17th, it wasn't realized that he was missing until considerably later -- I don't know exactly when. At that point, the trail had in effect gone cold, so that tracker dogs, for instance, were deemed unhelpful. He could also have gone in many directions and could have gotten a ride that morning.
Mentioning intuitive aspects on this thread has unfortunately triggered so much contention that most people are trying to only discuss those things in the thread that Tiffany started, of which you are aware. Thus each thread can focus on what it does best.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2213600/Mammoth-topography-in-regards-to-Visions-FindMattGreene
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OutdoorGal
Social climber
Lehigh Valley, PA
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Cragman, FYI. This trip report posted below by another forum member is from 2006, but someone did mention in it that there was plenty of snow in Blue Couloir in August, and that axe and crampons were helpful in navigating the steep sections.
http://highwire.stanford.edu/~galic/hiking/mammoth2006/crest.html
Was the climate different this year to alter the terrain so no snow would have been evident at the time of Matt's disappearance?
Know that I am not trying to be argumentative at all. Just trying to help. Some folks on here early on mentioned that Blue Couloir was the closest place to Shady Rest to have some fun on snow/ice, and that struck me as an important point considering the gear that Matt had set out with on the 17th and that he had no car.
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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I believe I have read every post and every link and site regarding the search for Matt. I have not found a good answer to why a large scale search could not have simply begun at his campsite. I appreciate what has been done on the ground and in the air, and the vast amounts of energy and time and courage.
I think more flyers is an excellent idea, and working on leads for rides he got is also excellent.
True, I don't know the area. But I keep wondering about mines and caves. Are they being searched by anyone?
btw, my father(also from Bethlehem PA) was an Appalachian Mountain climber and suffered a stroke and fell off his bike when he was 50, hiking alone in White Mountains. Someone was driving by and a young boy was looking out the back window so just happened to see him. I understand there are many possible scenarios.
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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A group of us from the LA area were in Mammoth around Aug. 16 All of us mountain bike, hike, fish, etc. "Missing" posters were posted in shops and restaurants but not conspicuously. One evening, I brought up Matt's case. None in the group had heard, or noticed any posters. Other neighbors and colleagues who visit Mammoth 1-4x a year had heard about Matt. Posters ought to be "refreshed" and posted in more conspicuous spots.
My point is that regular, repeat visitors aren't aware of the situation. As others said, it's very likely some nice family or person gave Matt a ride and is completely unaware. Very frustrating, but that's the unfortunate reality. This board is an isolated microcosm.
I was thinking that the search is like a small handful of dedicated people looking for someone hidden in a room in Manhattan. And it's not 100% certain they're even in the city.
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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LA Hiker,
Okay, will keep intuitive hunches to the other Visions thread. Just had to say something in defense of that approach!:)
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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I was thinking that the search is like a small handful of dedicated people looking for someone hidden in a room in Manhattan. And it's not 100% certain they're even in the city.
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CyDuke
climber
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I have followed this thread and wow it's all over the place. And maybe that's why I see so much close-mindedness now. I know the search has to be started somewhere but what I am beginning to see as an outsider looking in, with no vested interest in either side (family or search) is like a horse with blinders. Had to chime in after this:
Let's stick to the known facts, and the known facts alone.
Here are the facts:
Matt Greene is missing.
His backpack, crampons, boots, ice ax, 30 pages of guide book is missing.
He was last seen on July 16th, last heard from on July 16.
He got a text at approx 3am on the 17th from PA.
He did not take his helmet.
And some areas checked showed no trace of him.
So by this statement of going by facts and facts alone, everyone may as well shut down their computers and put away their hiking gear.
And since that is not a viable option if anyone has any hopes to find Matt, a little speculation has to take place. Problem is a lot of speculation is taking place. Lots of thoughts, ideas and some things that make sense are being discounted.
Cragman dude, props to you for all you have done. Man you have stepped up and seriously you are like my hero. And I mean no disrespect if I question some of your thoughts. They are your thoughts and I respect them as much as I respect you. You are a one in a million and I'd go to war with you any day. I'm just trying to make sense of one of the theories.
And I believe he likely had a pre-arranged ride to the trailhead, as opposed to hitchhiking.
This just makes no sense. It is not out of his character to hitch, we know that. Hitching at 3am either wouldn't be a good idea or very little traffic and wouldn't get a ride anyway. But, just the getting up at 3am seems like it didn't fit in with anything that Matt did before anyway. (out of character = clue). Also you said he may have gotten a prearranged ride with a Mammoth employee that doesn't speak English. If Matt only spoke English, how would this have been communicated? How could he have prearranged a ride? And would a Mammoth employee get up early just to give Matt a ride? And wouldn't there have been a text/call saying "on my way?" And seems to me if he prearranged a ride with another camper, he and his ride would have more than likely hiked together. And as far as we know no one else is missing. This just makes me question the whole pre-dawn ride. So, it leaves two other options. He got up early and walked somewhere or he got up early, checked his phone, went back to sleep and took the bus (but no witnesses, so impossible to know). He took the bus before to that area, so I would think if Matt was going to head back to that area, he probably would have waited and taken the bus. He did it before and seemed to work out for him okay. Why fix it if it ain't broke?
Another post I can't seem to ignore is the car being promised earlier.
If his car was promised earlier, he wouldn't have anticipated still being there on the 17th. Just seems if he really wanted to do this, it would have been done earlier than the 17th because I don't think he believed he would still be there on the 17th earlier in the month.
This makes a lot of sense. Do we know for sure if his car was promised earlier? If Ritter was on his things to do list, he had 5 days to get it done before the 17th. But, instead he went on to other places. Maybe Ritter was scratched off his bucket list.
And on to the crampons, boots, ax.
This trip report posted below by another forum member is from 2006, but someone did mention in it that there was plenty of snow in Blue Couloir in August, and that axe and crampons were helpful in navigating the steep sections.
http://highwire.stanford.edu/~galic/hiking/mammoth2006/crest.html
Not directing anyone to Blue Couloir, but this is just an example of other places his equipment could have been used. Ritter can't be the only place to use the missing equipment. Maybe going by the theory that he was up and out early, there was a place closer to camp that would have suited his use of crampons and such.
Helmet
Got in the car: later had the "oh shit" momentand decided to carry on. Possibly didn't find out till he got out of the car and shouldered his pack. I might change my objective but would carry on.
From Family: I don't think Matt would forget his helmet. I think it had to be left intentionally.
Would he have left it behind to do Ritter? I know some people would, but would Matt, being in uncharterted territory (for him) and also solo?
Guide book, thoughts here are that those pages were ripped out on the 11th when he ultimately hiked Clyde. According to maintenance dude he was considering areas in the guide book. He could have had it in his backpack all along and could lend no assistance to his possible direction that day.
There area few more things I see as an outsider, but I think these are big enough to consider. Facts cannot be manipulated to fit the theory. If it seems far-fetched, then it probably is.
What is needed is the one thing that is missing. Man power. And any hope of finding direction by use of dogs and/or investigation was taken away the day the campground owners/employees decided to pack up his stuff and put it in storage without calling authorities. hiker didn't come back for gear? And that wasn't a huge red flag? It is really unfortunate.
That's my two cents and not intended to insult anyone. Maybe some will agree, others will disagree. So little to go on and I just hope for a good and conclusive outcome.
Again, Cragman, props man. If anyone finds him, I hope it is you because you have put your heart and soul into this.
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phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
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Just want to add... it's no info that adds value, but I stayed this weekend at the Mammoth RV park, which is directly across the street from Shady Rest. It is the closest place to get a paid shower, and the closest place to do laundry. When I used to stay at Shady Rest, I would walk over there to buy a shower. The same 3 people are always at work in the office (I stay there at least once a year now). I asked them if they had heard about Matt. They said yes and knew about the search. I asked if anybody had asked about him and they said yes. Which speaks to the question being asked of why hasn't anybody done a search from the campground. The police may have done a lot of things that are not appearing on this thread.
Anyway they just shrugged and said "If he came in to buy a shower or to get the code for the laundry..." Meaning, they wouldn't remember, tourists come in all the time, many a day in the summer, and they didn't remember anything.
I have stayed at this RV park a number of times without a car, and my circuit... walking to the library for real internet (before my smart phone), the Von's, the Rite-Aid. The same as Matt's circuit. So many of us travel the same paths. We feel his presence. Even if they haven't posted to this thread, his friends and family should know that many people, on their travels and climbs in the area, long after this thread has fallen from the front page, will keep looking.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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very frustrating for all involved,
one comment would be that a solo climber would tend to be much more conservative in what they did, knowing that if something happened, they could not depend on finding help,
also, have there ever been people stalked by big cats up there at that area?
in not then that is something else than can be crossed off the list,
good luck and prayers
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2 l l
Sport climber
Rancho Verga, CA
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He was probably carrying his wallet with ID. May be one day, if that is found, it will indicate what/ where everything happened more or less - like with Fossett.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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I know someone who was stalked in the knolls above mammoth by a mt. lion at night....Not sure about the back country though..?
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OutdoorGal
Social climber
Lehigh Valley, PA
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Does anyone--Dan Watson--know whether the witnesses who came forward on Facebook and claimed to have talked to Matt at Shady Rest in the days before his disappearance had any significant clues to offer?
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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OutdoorGal
Does anyone--Dan Watson--know whether the witnesses who came forward on Facebook and claimed to have talked to Matt at Shady Rest in the days before his disappearance had any significant clues to offer?
I sent this information along with other information located by Supermama to the detective handling the case yesterday. Detective Hornbeck will review and determine next steps.
Thanks for asking.....
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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@crsgman. Hope you have a speedy recovery! !
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Cragman +100
Yes, so not possible and really.................inappropriate. Arggggg
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OutdoorGal
Social climber
Lehigh Valley, PA
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SplitPants, thanks. I had actually PM'd the names of the Facebook folks to Dan Watson on Wednesday 8/28 (at the request of another Supertopo member) and heard back from him on 8/29 that he was going to forward that info to Detective Hornbeck. I was hoping that the witnesses would have been reached by now and questioned. Days have gone by at this point. These people allegedly talked to Matt in the days before he disappeared and he even apparently showed them his guidebook and discussed his plans. People are speculating ad nauseum about where Matt might have gone. These people might have a concrete lead to narrow the search area. If I were a family member, I would be asking today where this questioning stands.
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