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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Apr 18, 2014 - 03:10pm PT
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Mr Kos,
You're only obligated to follow lawful commands.
No one is obligated to submit to tasering, dog bites, or a f*#king-up by the cops. Once the cops threaten such things, they no longer have the law 100% on their side.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Apr 18, 2014 - 03:16pm PT
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chaz, are you sure about that?
if a LEO tells you that if you do not "cease and desist" so to speak or to "stop resisting"
then yes, the LEO has every legal right to use a dog, taser, etc to get you to accept orders
and yes, those are all legal commands
true?
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Apr 18, 2014 - 03:25pm PT
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They do have the law 100% on their side. You don't get to point guns at federal agents. Those people are going to go to prison.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Apr 18, 2014 - 03:34pm PT
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Norton, I agree with the point you just made, and I think it's dangerous to make sweeping statements about rights in the abstract in these types of cases. It's not impossible, but such a sweeping statement would basically have to state the entire law of self defense, or else be a simplification that may or may not be accurate in any particular scenario.
I read Kos's initial statement as at least plausibly meaning that you don't have a right to self defense against LEO's, which is why I chimed in here. (Not saying that's the only reading of Kos's statement or that's necessarily what he meant--I just wanted to clear up any potential confusion).
Bruce--I actually think US self-defense law is pretty good (keeping in mind that it varies somewhat). The Florida statue seemed poorly drafted to me. Good old standard self-defense law (for example, as applied federally, which includes the "no duty to retreat" doctrine) seems fine to me.
2nd Amendment rights are, IMHO, subject to reasonable disagreement. The 2nd Amendment itself was terribly drafted (in the drafters' defense, the concept of constitutional law didn't really exist back then, nor was "legal drafting" as a skill as developed of a concept). And the advances in weapons technology (which may or may not have been anticipated to some extent, but surely weren't fully anticipated) further could the issue.
Edit--on further thought, I don't really agree with Norton's comment, at least not without some further clarification. It depends on whether the LEO's command to "stop resisting" is lawful. Again, it's all very fact specific.
As to omg's statement that someone is going to go to jail for pointing a gun at a federal official: if someone can point to any specific conduct that we could analyze, that may be an interesting exercise. As it stands, I don't have a good enough feel for who did what to have any real thought on how this may play out.
I think the narrative the right wingers want to project is something like LEO's went in and started pointing guns at people for no good reason, and the people then pointed guns back, then everyone went home.
If that's more-or-less what happened, I'm not sure that the people pointing guns at the LEO's committed any crime.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Apr 18, 2014 - 03:34pm PT
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So Bundy is innocent is this deal??
Takes two to tango.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Apr 18, 2014 - 03:46pm PT
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No one is obligated to remain passive in the face of direct violent threats, no matter who's doing the threatening.
That apply to everybody?
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Apr 18, 2014 - 03:47pm PT
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I believe it's pretty straighforward.
18USC SS 111 lays it out...you can't assualt, resist, or impede federal officers or employees in the conduct of their duties. When you brandish a deadly weapon in doing so, that elevates it to a felony.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Apr 18, 2014 - 03:48pm PT
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I can think of at least 5 crimes and I'm not even a prosecutor.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Apr 18, 2014 - 03:49pm PT
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Bruce,
I know little if anything about law of self defense outside the US, so I took a quick look at good ol' Wikipedia just for grins.
Take a look at the following, from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine#Outside_the_USA
Doesn't seem so different from the law in the US, agree?
Look at the England and Wales section, and I also note the German section about lethal force against LEO's.
I know US-bashing is a fun Canadian pass time, but save it for when we really do something wrong--there are still plenty of opportunities!
Outside the USA[edit]
Australia[edit]
Australian states have several differing laws. However, under South Australian law, the general defence appears in s15(1) Criminal Law Consolidation Act 1935 (SA) for defending a person's life, and s15A(1) for defending property, subject to a hybrid test, i.e. the defendant honestly believed the threat to be imminent and made an objectively reasonable and proportionate response to the circumstances as the accused subjectively perceived them.[26]
In July 2003, the Rann Government (SA) introduced laws allowing householders to use "whatever force they deem necessary" when confronted with a home invader. Householders who kill or injure a home invader escape prosecution provided they can prove they had a genuine belief that it was necessary to do so to protect themselves or their family.
The law was strongly opposed by then-Director of Public Prosecutions Paul Rofe, QC, and lawyer Marie Shaw, who is now a District Court Judge.[27]
England and Wales[edit]
In English common law a defendant may seek to avoid criminal or civil liability by claiming that he acted in self-defence.[28] This requires the jury to determine whether the defendant believed that force was necessary to defend him or herself, his or her property, or to prevent a crime, and that the force used was reasonable.[29] While there is no duty to retreat from an attacker and failure to do so is not conclusive evidence that a person did not act in self-defence, it may still be considered by the jury as a relevant factor when assessing the merits of a self-defence claim.[28] The common law duty to retreat was repealed by the Criminal Law Act 1967. This duty never existed when a person is somewhere he has a lawful right to be, but due to the repeal, now extends to public places, etc.
Germany[edit]
German law allows self-defense against an unlawful attack.[30] Courts have interpreted this law as applicable to home invasion, including the use of lethal force against law enforcement in cases where the home owner was of the mistaken belief that the intrusion was unlawful.[31]
Israel[edit]
Israeli law allows property owners to defend themselves with force.[32] This law was introduced in response to the trial of Shai Dromi, an Israeli farmer who shot Arab intruders on his farm late at night.[33]
Italy[edit]
Italy passed a law in 2005 that would allow property owners to defend themselves with force.[34]
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Apr 18, 2014 - 04:02pm PT
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I believe it's pretty straighforward.
18USC SS 111 lays it out...you can't assualt, resist, or impede federal officers or employees in the conduct of their duties. When you brandish a deadly weapon in doing so, that elevates it to a felony.
It's possibly that straightforward, but not necessarily.
For example, were LEO's legally performing their duties? If they were going around pointing guns at people for no reason, perhaps not.
Further, the law of self defense still applies to a prosecution under 18 USC Section 111. See United States v. Alvarez, 755 F. 2d 830 (11th Cir. 1985).
(Before anyone roasts me too hard, I am NOT saying that any of the people involved in this ranch business were validly exercising a right of self defense, or that the LEOs did anything wrong. I'm just pointing those out as theoretical possibilities--I don't know much about what actually happened. I saw the rancher being interviewed by Hannity and didn't really have much sympathy for him--sounded kind of crackpotish to me)
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
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Apr 18, 2014 - 04:05pm PT
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Used logic - cheap.
A = free land
B = cowboyz
A&B = Bundy
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Apr 18, 2014 - 04:06pm PT
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Can you cite any US legal code or judicial precedent that permits anyone to engage a US officer with a firearm?
I suspect that there are fact patterns that would allow someone to engage a US Officer with a firearm. The facts would be extreme, criminal behavior on the part of the officer.
At the state level you may be permitted to resist an unlawful arrest under the law. Famous case in San Diego was Sagon Penn, cops tried to arrest him, he resisted and shot and killed an officer. He was acquitted of murder and his case exposed how corrupt the police and DA's office was/is.
http://community.adn.com/node/163131
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Apr 18, 2014 - 04:10pm PT
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2nd Amendment rights are, IMHO, subject to reasonable disagreement. The 2nd Amendment itself was terribly drafted (in the drafters' defense, the concept of constitutional law didn't really exist back then, nor was "legal drafting" as a skill as developed of a concept). And the advances in weapons technology (which may or may not have been anticipated to some extent, but surely weren't fully anticipated) further could the issue.
very well said, wish more Americans would see it this way...
likely because that would take a little deeper intellect...
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
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Apr 18, 2014 - 04:13pm PT
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Can you cite any US legal code or judicial precedent that permits anyone to engage a US officer with a firearm?
Well sheeit, that's EZ as hell. The Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution as construed by A.(don't call me a-hole, mthrfckr) Scalia.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Apr 18, 2014 - 04:23pm PT
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actually,
I believe Scalia said that he believed the 2nd Amendment should be interpreted as to whatever an individual person can "carry" on their person is ok, flamethrowers, etc, all good
and THAT is the reason why we have 9 supreme court justices, rather than just one
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John Duffield
Mountain climber
New York
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Apr 18, 2014 - 04:28pm PT
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Does all this mean, there is no Sleeping Giant?
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 18, 2014 - 04:29pm PT
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
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Apr 18, 2014 - 04:38pm PT
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A. Scalia says:
“My starting point and probably my ending point will be what limitations are within the understood limitations that the society had at the time,” he said. “They had some limitations on the nature of arms that could be borne. So we’ll see what those limitations are as applied to modern weapons.”
Paul Revere undoubtedly believed that it was appropriate to take up arms against a (from overseas raft of troubles - i.e. King George's US officers) and by opposing kill them.
QED
So say you Scalia, so say you all.
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thebravecowboy
climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
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Apr 18, 2014 - 04:39pm PT
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but Jack Burns dies Dingus, hamburger in the grill of Hinman's semi.
the little guy loses no matter how pure his morals or stout his self-determined skillset.
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