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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Mar 31, 2011 - 12:09am PT
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MNIM,
electrical energy is a commodity that everyone on this thread uses. There is an actual benefit for mankind for electrical power. It's easy to debate on the quantity of power each of us uses but frankly, nobody on this thread is "green" otherwise we would save our electrons for something more useful and important to our basic survival than bantering on the internet.
Why is it alright to risk 39,000 deaths per year driving? Where are the outcries? Where is the call to stop driving? I have worked around nerve agents, WMD's, radionuclides, hazardous waste, etc. Always safety has been paramount. The safe thing to do is to stay in bed in the morning and not drive to work. Unfortunately, most of us cannot do that financially. So instead, we drive to work (one of the riskiest tasks of our day) and do not think twice about it.
The point I am trying to make is to weigh the Risk-Benefit analysis on everything in your life. Make an informed decision. If we relied upon the general (uneducated) public, then climbing would be outlawed in National Parks because the typical US citizen and or politician see no good reason to climb and or think it is dangerous because frankly, they are ignorant.
SO I challenge the vociferous No Nuke people on this thread to weigh coal versus Nuclear energy. Yes, renewable's are great, but at this point they will not solve our immediate energy demands. Weigh the impacts to human health and the environment for each. Go to the American Lung Association Web Site and read about emissions from coal fired power plants. If after careful objective analysis you reach an informed decision. Great. Good for you.
But if all you can do is come out against Nuclear energy because you watched CNN and or bought into ill-informed hysteria, then you are only fooling yourself and are a part of the "nuclear witch hunt".
Don't tell me how bad it is in Japan (I totally get how bad it is, probably more than most), tell me about the thousands of people who die each year due to poor air quality. Tell me about the decades of hazardous air pollutants that create most of our electrical power. Tell me how you have weighed Health, Environment, Cost etc. to reach an informed decision with regards to your opinion on the best energy source.
My heart is in this because my entire career has been cleaning up the worst stuff you could imagine. Metal Plating Wastes at the Derewal Site in NJ, Pesticides with organic arsenic compounds contaminating 20 miles of the Vineland River in NJ as it emptied into the Atlantic. Coal Tar Contaminated Sediments in the Chattanooga River, TN. Pestides at KemPest Site, MO. Refinery Waste in UT. The search for biological and chemical agents at Dugway Proving Grounds, UT. The safe destruction of chemical agent WMD's at the Umatilla Chemical Agent Disposal Facility (UMCDF) OR. Now I am at the largest and most complex cleanup site in the world at the Hanford Nuclear Reservation, WA. The cleanup of 53 Million gallons of Highly radioactive waste from the Manhattan project and the cold war. I am the kind of professional who would clean up a place like the mess in Japan.
So long as people blindly follow others to the edge of the cliff we will fall. I don't care if you and I see eye to eye. But I do expect people to make informed decisions. Otherwise, you are part of the problem.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Mar 31, 2011 - 12:39am PT
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Crazy tsunami footage on NOVA right now.
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Mar 31, 2011 - 12:43am PT
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golsen
You and I a life time apart on solar. I lived in a house for over two years that was all solar. Had all the electricity I needed and the solar setup was junk. A good friend just put a solar setup on 1/3 his house. He averaged 15kwh per day during the shortest Month of the year during one of the wettest winters of late.
3 companies in the Bay Area put out solar farms in less than three years that are putting out 6 Mega Watts. That is three companies that did it not governments, not utilities.
If solar panels were put on every building in the lower half of the US we would have more electricity than we could use.
You do not believe in alternativse because you do not want to. You work with Hazardous materials every day. So if a plant goes bad every once in a while and they fence off a 30 mile radius it's no big deal and people should get over it because that is life.
It is common knowledge that the driving habits of people needs to be changed and the popularity of hybrids and electrics goes to show that people know it. Communities are trying to be more bicycle friendly. Everybody with any sense knows something has to be done.
People will always prefer to live in ignorance or denial because it is easier. Just look at the eating habits of the average person. Look at how many people smoke, or do not exercise.
Saying Nuclear energy is fine and the fact that it kills a few people every once in a while is no big deal, because people die in cars every day? Well that is just nuts.
People do not want to look at new technologies because if they did they might have to change and one things is absolutely undeniable and that is, people do not like to change.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Mar 31, 2011 - 02:01am PT
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Our societies have a 100 year history of exploiting technology development to centralize money and power and monopolize goods and services. It is time for our societies to grow up; and for individuals to take back control of their lives. The technology to do that is available, but has been suppressed in favor of large corporation monopoly profits; and at the expense of destroying our world.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Mar 31, 2011 - 02:56am PT
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ut cries of hysteria are based not on an understanding, nor are they based upon science, nor are they based upon the relative risks to human health and the environment. They are based on emotion. Some of you roasted Adam for trying to provide an educated perspective. It reminds me of witch hunters. Fry the person who does not think like you and lets get the crowd in a frenzy so everyone will agree. The days of Rumsfeld? Bush?
Ummm.. so its okay for you to roast those who disagree with Rradam, but is not okay for us to roast him? Roger that..
And because driving is dangerous, we should ignore the dangers of nuclear energy?
I'm hysterical for asking these questions?
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Mar 31, 2011 - 03:02am PT
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hey there all, say.... not sure if it was david em??? or not, but someone posted this very ongoing, informative map of japan, and the quakes as they update, and, it will zoom in and show terrain...
here is the link:
http://www.japanquakemap.com/
very nice, i was able to see where my friends were, and the coastline, etc...
thank you for sharing this map...
hope the link is of use to some folks...
god bless...
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Mar 31, 2011 - 08:52am PT
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John,
no. While ST certainly has its share of roastings, I am merely pointing out that that this energy debate thing must not be emotionally based. If it were then you should go cut some firewood to heat your home.
MNIM, glad you got solar. There is not however, enough land or surface area to feed all of our needs in the USA. I applaud those that do use it though.
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Mar 31, 2011 - 09:54am PT
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golsen,
I disagree with your assessment that there is not enough land mass. So my friend is generating 15kwh per day on average in the middle of a rainy winter. His panels cover 1/3 of his house. Cover his entire house that triples. How many houses/buildings are in the Greater Bay area? In LA, in Phoenix? In the lower half of the US? Add in a few small solar farms and expand that to the whole country and yes there is enough.
I think there is a need for other sources of electricity but there is not a good reason for Solar to not be the back bone of a good system. In addition Solar is a distributed system so from an emergency or security stand point it is a better solution.
With Wind and hydro thrown in there the need for a dependency on coal and nuclear is significantly reduced.
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Mar 31, 2011 - 10:19am PT
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As a some what interesting side note my friend with solar is a hard core Republican that hates Liberals and Environmentalists. He got solar because he got tired of paying well over $300 a month in electric bills. When he was getting his quotes he showed everyone that came out his electric bills and said; I want my monthly payment to be less than this.
He has 3 plasma tv's, several computers and turns on all his lights. Runs the heater and in the summer he stated he wanted to be able to run the AC all day. He can now run everything he wants without thinking of his electric bill.
His monthly payments are less and he no longer has an electric bill.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Mar 31, 2011 - 11:56am PT
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We absolutely must have nuke power, we have no choice if mankind isn't going to die back to a billion or less.
Now that got my attention. What is your basis for this?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Mar 31, 2011 - 12:01pm PT
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Otherwise, the future looks a lot like life as a Apache or Pima Indian 200 years ago. That is, ya'll ain't going to have to worry about your weight any longer, or your dieting.
That was a excellent post there. Well done.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Mar 31, 2011 - 12:11pm PT
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Rocky, is it possible for you to make concise and coherent point?
Nobody read all yer crap/
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Mar 31, 2011 - 12:13pm PT
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Rocky, is it possible for you to make concise and coherent point? Nobody read all yer crap/
I just read his post, it was one of his best. What are YOU thinking?!
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Mar 31, 2011 - 12:41pm PT
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Excellent posts Rokjox!
Gemini, Apollo, Shuttle Astronaut John Young::
"We have to get off this planet and we have to get off fast!"
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 31, 2011 - 12:43pm PT
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This planet can easily sustain 6 billion more.
It's only problem is mismanagement.
This planet is run by idiots in the guise of experts .....
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Mar 31, 2011 - 12:51pm PT
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the only knowledgeable people allowed to persist in posting on taco threads are those with a very high tolerance for rude disrespectful foolish responses
it is much more important for each of us to reinforce our own myopic self-destructive world view, than to learn anything new that might help us survive
Werner Braun Mar 31, 2011 - 09:43am PT
This planet can easily sustain 6 billion more.
It's only problem is mismanagement.
This planet is run by idiots in the guise of experts .....
Agreeing with Werner Braun on this.
I've been saying for a long time that we don't have a population problem.
We have a management problem. We don't know how to balance ecological systems or maintain life support systems.
That is why I have devoted my professional career to systems management.
We have much to learn
The management problem can largely be considered to originate from barbaric ethics:
disrespect
dishonesty
selfish greed
rude social manners
myopic levels of awareness
self-serving decision making
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Mar 31, 2011 - 01:01pm PT
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There has been an absolute sea change in Japan overnight. The Japanese government is now boasting that Americans, French, and international experts are helping out and Prime Minister Kan is now calling for an international nuclear safety commission to be set up which will study the Fukushima disaster to learn from it and set up new international rules for nuclear safety.
Tepco management is getting more and more blame as some of the workers are starting to speak out about working with not enough food, sleeping on the floor with one blanket, and only the heads of work groups having radiation detection badges because the company ran out. No wonder the government has asked for international help.
Meanwhile, NHK is putting on programs about the tsunami survivors who have now gone from shock and joy at being alive to depression as they contemplate what they have lost and how difficult it will be to replace it. They are still short of everything but psychologists are starting to counsel people in the evacuation centers and are describing many people with PTSD.
U.S. military television in Japan is beginning to report more on the relief work done and tonight they showed the U.S. Marines arriving in remote islands off the coast in amphibious landing carriers full of supplies as the harbors have been destroyed and normal boats can't dock there. And finally, two of the handfull of undamaged fishing boats went out from Sendai today for the first time and caught fish "to raise everyone's spirits". Their catch was distributed in the evacuation centers.
Today was the first hopeful day since this began. Realism has set in for both good and bad. Without realism however, nothing can be accomplished.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Mar 31, 2011 - 01:06pm PT
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I agree with both Werner and Tom.
One of the things a person learns from living in Asia is just how many people the world can support if they cooperate with each other. We don't need half the amount of space or material goods to be happy that people in North America think we do.
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