Paul Preuss, Our Founding Father Of Style.

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Steve Grossman

Trad climber

Seattle, WA

Jun 9, 2010 - 10:29pm PT

Thanks for posting this dialog!!!

Classic ethical arm wrestling match between a couple of rascals when the questions are mostly ones of style! Great stuff$$$

Interestingly, the same step backwards that Preuss advocated would become necessary to allow the clean climbing movement to happen. In the early Summit article Save South Crack, Robbins presented a very clear case for radically resetting the technological basis of our approach to overcoming climbing problems in order to preserve challenge and the stone itself.

He opened his argument with a lengthy description of some gripped fool making a shambles out of South Crack with full hammered orchestration and falls aplenty. Royal asks the simple question of whether the route in question and climbing itself can withstand more degradation in the name of ready access.

Had Preuss's detractors been able to suddenly see the excesses of the modern era, they might have seen more content in his position.

survival

Big Wall climber

A Token of My Extreme

Topic Author's Reply - Jun 9, 2010 - 11:09pm PT

Randisi,

Seriously bro.....seriously.....

Have you ever been checked for OCD?

Yer blowin' me away, I LOVE IT!!

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Jun 10, 2010 - 09:47am PT

Sports climbing evolved because there was so much climbable rock that didn't lend itself normal protection techniques. Once started, lo and behold, a lot of climbers found they could climb harder with a big fat bolt nearby.

jogill

climber

Colorado

Jun 12, 2010 - 05:36pm PT

Sports climbing evolved because there was so much climbable rock that didn't lend itself normal protection techniques.

And traditional climbers in the US found themselves losing ground to the Euros in the race to greater difficulty.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Jun 12, 2010 - 05:52pm PT

Difficulty is hard to quantify. Which is more difficult a 5:13 C R/X trad lead or a 5:14 B sport climb? I think there are more climbers capable of doing the later.

jogill

climber

Colorado

Jun 15, 2010 - 11:24pm PT

Difficulty is hard to quantify. Which is more difficult a 5:13 C R/X trad lead or a 5:14 B sport climb? I think there are more climbers capable of doing the later.

Yep.

Randy, you need to put all of this into book form and at the very least give a copy to the AAC library. I did that with my Origins of Bouldering on my website, through blurb.com. You download free software and easily put such material into book format, and this outfit does a really professional product (I'm sure there are other online publishers as well who do excellent work).As for a book that could be sold at stores, ask Largo and others about the possibilities. Not sure the market is there.

klk

Trad climber

cali

Jun 16, 2010 - 12:37pm PT

thanks for all the work randy.

hate to ask, but could you also give the complete citaiton for each article as you post? that way anyone who can't get their hands on the german journals can at least cite to the original as well as your translation.

i'll be at the dav archiv next week. they've digitized tons of their stuff, but due to budget cuts, they're now open only one day per week.

survival

Big Wall climber

A Token of My Extreme

Topic Author's Reply - Jun 16, 2010 - 01:52pm PT

Randy, you are a monster.

I can't thank you enough for taking what I thought was going to be just an average obscure thread and turning it into a real work of serious quality.

You DA MAN!

jstan

climber

Jun 18, 2010 - 08:03pm PT

Randy;
Thank you.

Around 1970 when were doing our best to no longer drive pins and no good nuts had as yet been invented I was of the opinion people in the Shawangunks were in fact ready and able to accept a reduction in the apparent difficulty of our climbing. While it would have been a great achievement psychologically I was very pleased when Tom Frost's wonderful inventions showed up. We were headed onto possibly dangerous ground.

One never wants to see one's friends in danger.

TMO

Trad climber

Puyallup, WA

Oct 16, 2010 - 05:38pm PT

Stellar work and interesting discussion gentlemen. I have enjoyed this thread immensely.

survival

Big Wall climber

A Token of My Extreme

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 16, 2010 - 09:26pm PT

Randisi,
I love that picture! You're right, it's immensely better.

I'm still swimming through some of your great work here. I had a ton of fun on this thread, but you are the workhorse...sheesh!

survival

Big Wall climber

A Token of My Extreme

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 17, 2010 - 03:39pm PT

Randisi,
That wiki article is wonderful. Very well put together. Every time I think I'm a Preuss veteren, you show me something new!

How sad that they tried to erase him from memory, and thank god they weren't able to do it eh?

klk

Trad climber

cali

Oct 17, 2010 - 04:27pm PT

hey randy, sorry, i'd missed yr summer post:

Where in these does Preuss claim, imply or even hint that you have to climb down the same route you climbed up? That would be inane. It would render traversing a mountain cheating, impure, of little “ethical worth,” and Preuss liked to traverse mountains.

I don't believe Preuss scorned traverses-- indeed he did a lot of them, like the great Alleinganger, Herman von Barth, before him. But then traverses were routes in themselves. And the early 20th century was the last period in which it had been possible (in the eastern Alps), to still do first ascents on downclimbs. Josef Enzensberger's FA of Schiefe Risse-- as part of his downclimb --was one of the region's most famous climbs.

My understanding of the Preussian "ideal" is based on the context that his written essays could reference. Up and down under yr own power without use of pitons or weighting a rope is simple (and stark) enough. And the period ideal of that sort of ascent was pretty visible-- up under yr own power without pitons or weighting a rope and down via the same route or one of equivalent difficulty had already been established as the purest and toughest of the available options.

If Preuss had intended a retreat from that ideal, I doubt that we'd have had a Mauerhakenstreit. Or perhaps I should say, had Preuss been understood by his contemporaries as intending something less than that as the ideal, I doubt we'd have had a Mauerhakenstreit. Certainly that reading is consistent not only with period practice and the vehemence of the responses, it's also consistent with my best guess as to the sort of (amateurish) species of idealism that Preuss seems to have been familiar with and that was current at the time.

Fixing what Preuss actually said, much less what he intended at any given moment, is of course impossible at this distance, given that most of the debate was verbal and physical rather than written. Not that it matters much. I'm certainly not writing a Preuss bio and I don't even know if there's enough material available to make one possible. It'd be a really expensive undertaking for an American, in any event.

So far as Huber on Grand Capucin, the first reports I read in German (one of the magazines? it's been awhile) and then comments from various German-speaking climbers that talked to me about it all referenced the Preussian ideal. It may be that Huber had something else in mind, but he's certainly chosen Preuss as one of his predecessors. I honestly haven't read Free Solo yet.

And I hadn't seen any references to Preuss in the Italian literature, aside from Piaz's account in his post-war memoir. So far as I knew, Preuss was recuperated by the generation of 1968 as part of their battle with the conservative politics and climbing style of the previous generation. Messner, of course, was the most prominent of those folks. (Good thing he's not an American-- he'd be endlessly vilified on Supertopo if he were.)

Great climbing with you this summer-- hope stuff's going well. Really happy to hear you've got an article in the works. Drop me a line if you're in the area this fall-- I may get another day trip to the granite at some point.

klk

Trad climber

cali

Oct 17, 2010 - 06:12pm PT

cool. drop me a line before you get here. my schedule is pretty bad this fall, but maybe we can at least grab a soda pop.

i really doubt anyone has taken a chisel to the ramp. that stuff is just choss. if you were going to chisel anything on that wall, i can think of several edges/crystals that would've been comfortized years ago.

the key foothold under the bulge is going to go any day. sometimes i just wish that entire cliff would get quarried so i didnt have to climb on it anymore. heh.

re preuss-- it'd be nice to see someone do a more complete study of "jewish" climbers from the period. folks have sort of chipped at the edges of the topic, but there's been more done on political anti-semitism in the clubs than has been done on actual climbers. not that preuss was "jewish" in a strong sense, but certainly enough to get read out of the canon by the right-wingers.

lots of ironies in preuss's disappearance and rediscovery, on both sides of the atlantic.

do you have mailaender's im zeichen des edelweiss? idk if the aac library has it, but they ought to.

klk

Trad climber

cali

Oct 17, 2010 - 06:53pm PT

that photo looks right to me-- the second line in the first photo, the central line in the 2nd one. i know folks frequently climb up to that 2nd terrace and then walk off or else rap.

but i haven't climbed on the totenkirchl-- i had one week in the wilder kaiser, and it was gorgeous the evening i arrived-- great views, cool looking climbs. then it rained sideways for an entire week and i never even frickin saw the cliffs again.

there's good reasons to climb in the dolomites, aside from the food and the generally good rock-- usually better weather south of the brenner.

klk

Trad climber

cali

Oct 18, 2010 - 04:14pm PT

wait, so is second terrace on the top of that route or is it where it begins?

klk

Trad climber

cali

Oct 18, 2010 - 06:37pm PT

thanks for the correction on 2nd terrace and linking the stadler guidebook, as i dont have one.

totenkirchl is an interesting place-- you can't really see it until you've hiked in and get this dramatic frame. usually clouds, fog, maybe some rain, very gothic. or at least it was when i was there.

re the rappel technique: the two hands above the bend deal shows up a lot in the early pix. i believe it's because folks had been accustomed to simply climbing down hand over hand. those laid hemp deals were a lot easier to grip-- they were just thinner versions of the ones folks climbed in gyms, and lowering with a leg wrap (and hands above) was common enough there.

the Sitz added additional security on low-angle stuff, and then became the principle brake on free rappels.

the DAV also has several pix of PReuss on various big peaks-- the Wetterhorn, I think. i don't have them on speed dial, though.

klk

Trad climber

cali

Oct 18, 2010 - 09:13pm PT

i know that name, but can't remember why or where. jacobi isn't indexed in amstaedter or zebhauser and the dav isn't online for some reason.

but maybe we should talk shop offline rather than cluttering the thread? just email me