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Ray-J
Social climber
socal
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Sep 22, 2009 - 02:03pm PT
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What Wade Icey wrote: LOL!
Graniteclimber: I agree w/ you.
End edit/end post.
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 22, 2009 - 02:26pm PT
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Matt
Despite the urge to respond, I'll try to take the advice of several and let this one go.
Cheers,
Mark
Edit -- Deuce4, some unfinished business with you. Glancing through my notes, it looks like the head count was about 190.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Sep 22, 2009 - 02:36pm PT
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Mark- cheers, right back atchya
Pete- yes, facelift would be a good time, especially if the goal is to have more stories about the 1st pitch(+/-) by some other wanker (no offense intended) who has neither the time, the interest, the motivation, or the ability to spend a month up there ..
re: "with lots of shouts of encouragement from the peanut gallery"
as per russ' last post-
it might be more helpful to be shouting up beta about where to find the non-enhanced enhancements, or to be counciling the poor bugger about whether he should shelve his own sense of right and wrong and proceed with a few micro-non-enhancement-enhancements, if in fact he feels like that's what's necessary to navigate upward toward the next "drilled hole". after all it's the hardest hooking on the captain and it apparently only goes in the absence of certain crystals that are/were/would be obstacles at several (a dozen? a score? who knows?) unmarked, unidentified, random, and 'impossible to see if you are right there' locations...
(not that it's a confusing quagmire for anyone considering the endeavor...)
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Nate Ricklin
climber
San Diego
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Sep 22, 2009 - 02:43pm PT
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Is it the FAist's job to put colored tape on the holds he used? WTF.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Sep 22, 2009 - 03:07pm PT
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Who cares if the SAME holds/placements are used?
Logic says that the ones they used are the best/biggest on the lower pitches. If some wall stud climbs it and uses some other ones implementing the FA'ists style, more power to them--they would hardly be scrutinized for their effort by Mark and Richard (guessing here).
Sounds like an(other) excuse to not try it, due to lack of sack.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Sep 22, 2009 - 03:08pm PT
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^^^^
yeah.... that's it.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Sep 22, 2009 - 04:33pm PT
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Reckon I better let this one go, too.
Seems my questions/comments have struck a nerve. Madbolter's psychological projecting of his past trauma is a bit disturbing. Thanks MSmith for the additional info on the copperheading.
Regarding the second ascent, the climbers might need a special set of guidelines on how the chisel/hammer can be utilised, in keeping with the FA style.
cheerio-
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2009 - 04:33pm PT
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Matt, just a correction before I move on to more important topics. Just a browser search of the thread (which you could have done in seconds if you cared a whit about accuracy) will reveal that only YOU referred (sarcastically) to WoS as "classic:" "WoS is a highly respected route, perhaps even THE singular, definitive, all time El Cap classic."
I have 2 uses of the word, "classic" and Mark has one in this thread prior to your revisionist historical claim about what we said. Two of those uses refer to other climbs, such as the Sea, and one references the "Classic El Cap and Half Dome Climbs" article by Cole in another thread. Nowhere in this thread do either of us say anything remotely resembling calling WoS: "a true classic," as you assert.
I realize, as do most people following threads in which you participate, that accuracy and simply honest charity is the farthest thing from your mind when you post. You are a flamer through and through.
It's probably stupid of me to correct a flamer, but others might be interested to do the same quick browser search I just did of the thread and see for themselves how just another little bit of defamation bites the dust.
Sad on you, Matt.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Sep 22, 2009 - 04:49pm PT
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BS dood- i re-used your word, in fairly obvious sarcasm no less...
mojede-
ever sport climbed at rifle?
it's really not my gig, but i went once and checked it out for a couple days.
especially before the routes get really hard, every possible edge has chalk on it, so it's pretty inobvious. in a weird way it's even less obvious than if there were no chalk at all. the result is that you end up spending lots of time standing in/on a climb and exploring all these chalked up edges.
might be more interesting for some than for others.
same goes for WoS hooking, i'd say.
and no, you don't need to hook exactly what they hooked-
BUT-
if it's as sparse and thin as they say, there is no reason to expect that if you diverge from their actual line (say, by hooking something over here a bit instead of over there a bit) , that you will still continue to find passage, or that the passage you do find will eventually lead to their sparse drilled protection, so at a minimum you do risk more frustration, and at a maximum you risk taking what are now pointless whippers on runout (possibly featured?) slab, when you are uncertain if you are even "on route", or taking a path that "goes".
...can't imagine why the line isn't long on the weekends!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2009 - 05:08pm PT
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Russ, I take it that your copied section of an earlier thread is supposed to emphasize two points: 1) Mark said "many" enhancements; 2) Your ever-present idea that the route is not climbable unless our enhancements are detectable and so usable by the SA party. Ok, point by point:
1) Mark did say "many," and I think Mark should respond to this for himself. I know that in our conversations over the years, Mark has always been a glass-half-empty sort of guy, while I'm more of a realist. :-) Depending upon how you view it, "many" or "few" describe the same 10% of our hook placements being "enhanced." Look at it this way. If you play Russian Roulette with a six-gun and one chamber loaded, is that a large or small chance of you blowing your brains out when you pull the trigger? It's the same 1/6 chance, but a good case can be made for calling the odds "long" and "short." What if the odds were 1/10? Ready to pull the trigger yet? I can see why Mark would call 10% of our hooks being "enhanced" as "many;" yet I continue to call that percentage "few." Mark, weigh in. Why DID you open that can of worms by using such an ill-advised term? :-)
2) I hope this thread has accomplished one thing if nothing else. The idea that the only way up WoS is by slavishly finding and using our "enhanced" placements is simply ridiculous on many fronts. First, "many" of our "enhanced" placements pealed off when we tried to use them (as I said, more often than with regular placements, as a percentage). Often, that left nothing even remotely usable (motivating the "enhancement" attempt in the first place). Typically a rivet went into that spot.
...Wow, just as an aside, it just hit me that this fact is actually better for our "drilling" percentages. After all, a high percentage of our "enhancement" attempts didn't result in a placement that worked, resulting in a bolt or rivet instead. We already count the bolt or rivet in our tally, so the non-placement that resulted from an "enhancement" attempt shouldn't count against us at all, since it didn't get us anywhere. Cool! Hahahaha
Anyway, back to the point....
Second, this climb-by-the-numbers way of thinking simply won't work on WoS. Almost all other climbs are repeated by a fairly straightforward assessment of a pretty closed-ended situation. It's not difficult to figure out what to do, and it's pretty obvious what the FA party did to get past a spot. Once, you've done a route a few times, you can even get to know what placements go where. Climb-by-numbers. WoS is not like that at all. You, like us, will just have to figure out what to do moment by moment. You will have one major advantage (as anybody doing FAs and repeats of slabs knows): As you get more and more strung out, you have a bolt or rivet beckoning you closer and closer.
Also, as I said earlier, not like we have any "say" in the matter, but we would encourage anybody to employ our same tactic, which should result in more falls (as it did for us) and in resulting "enhanced" placements (if they work) that are not detectable.
That slab is a minefield of little flakes. Most will work for you, and about 1/3 will not (what we found). To say that you have to find the FA's exact sequence of enhanced placements is quite ridiculous. The remaining "enhanced" placements are so few as to be entirely insignificant to the chances of success. After this many years, if you found NONE of them (if any still exist), that would be meaningless.
If you get a "feel" for what to hook, you'll do well. If not, well... you will fall a lot more than we did. That's the nature of the game on WoS. "Enhance" all you want... all you dare, if you do it the way we did. That's not going to be what gets you up or makes you fail. The route is about a "light touch," lots of top-looping, a learned "feel" for what's going to hold, and some luck.
The "enhancements" discussion is a tempest in a teapot and has zero relevance to the SA.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Sep 22, 2009 - 05:09pm PT
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her ya go numbnuts:
(and no, i don't appreciate having to re-read this sad and sorry thread to find it either!)
as posted by you- in context- emphasis added
"I remember a passage by Bridwell in Yosemite Climber in which he is quoted as saying, "The thing that makes the P.O. Wall different from other routes is that there are no corners to hide your ass in," noting then how much subtler and tinier the features were. "Subtlety" does not equate to "non-natural," and no arbitrary line (quite a bit short of an actual bolt ladder) is going to accurately brand a route as "natural" or "non-natural."
"There's a lot of drilling on WoS. Certainly. There's a lot of drilling and other heavy-handed tactics on some other classic routes too. On that point I guess I would just contrast the few micro-gram anti-enhancements of WoS with Bridwell's instructions to the leader on one pitch of ZM: "Beat the sh|t out of those blocks! Really BEAT on 'em! Cut 'em loose!" Anybody that's ever used the pick of a hammer to dislodge a pebble from a crack has been more heavy handed with the hammer than we were with all of our anti-enhancements combined."
(say if you like that you'd meant to include POWall rather than WoS, but given the WoS right before "other routes, that's not what you wrote... your retraction and apology are accepted in advance, thanks for playin)
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2009 - 05:12pm PT
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John, there's no need for a chisel. None of the features are big enough for such a blunt instrument.
"Projecting of past trauma?" Ha, what a pile. You can do better than that. Drop the psycho-babble, and let's stay with brass tacks. Your analogy was pathetic and lame. My analogy was an accurate nutshell representation of the last 27 years cast in your "art" terms.
The fact remains that the "art critics" feel free to critique a painting that they have not seen, and your idea that you are "looking" from this computerized discussion is transparently absurd.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Sep 22, 2009 - 05:14pm PT
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madbolter1 wrote:
And to those telling us, in effect, to shut up: you are telling that to the wrong people, and nobody is forcing you to read these threads.
As we continue to be defamed, we will continue to set the record straight. We know that we cannot convince any of the remaining detractors. But we won't again make the mistake of letting time pass with lies as common "knowledge." So, "letting it go" is a function of others at this point, not us.
This sums things up really well, and I think it's worth repeating.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2009 - 05:18pm PT
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Ok, let's parse out that sentence carefully...
Ok... here we go.... Ready?
"on some OTHER..." (that means other than WoS... got it?)
"classic..." (there it is... and LOOK at what it modifies... wait for it...)
"routes." (There it is, the subject of the sentence, the thing that "classic" modifies.)
So, let me spell it out slooowly and carefully for you in LONGHAND:
"...on some other routes besides WoS that, as I've repeatedly mentioned in various contexts, I consider to be classic."
Got it?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2009 - 05:23pm PT
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Matt, remember what I said about an iota of charity? I mean, that you don't have it?
Ok, good.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Sep 22, 2009 - 05:28pm PT
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yer letting yer dimwittedness show pal-
(it's OK, i can talk *S L O W* too! note: that's a HINT!)
you
quit
T O O
(^ ^ ^ another HINT!)
soon...
are you bright enough to figure that out, without further explanation? if not- the complete phrase you wrote is "other classic routes TOO". how very Fauxnews of you to diagram only part of the phrase! love it! although a tad predictable, which is why i quoted you in context in the 1st place. so you see, i am being charitable! i am giving you the correct phrase, a significant portion of which you were either lacking or acintentionally omitted... you are most welcome.
so, for final clarification
(in case you are not an english grammar scholar?)
"There's a lot of drilling on WoS. Certainly. There's a lot of drilling and other heavy-handed tactics on some other classic routes..."
does NOT equal
"There's a lot of drilling on WoS. Certainly. There's a lot of drilling and other heavy-handed tactics on some other classic routes too."
(edit- would Jesus intentionally misquote HIMself, or would HE take responsibility for misspeaking? just curious, because here is what you just use to quote yourself:
"routes." (There it is, the subject of the sentence, the thing that "classic" modifies.)
in fact, you inserted a period(.) after the word 'routes', there is no period until after the word 'too')
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Sep 22, 2009 - 05:28pm PT
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I mostly quoted the whole thing so I would not be on the "hook" for selective editing or some-such buffoonery....
The point being, and this isn't even really about you guys, but since your route is probably more deserving and applicable than say some crack with random hooking, first ascents have the built in safety valve of being able to dictate the difficulty to some degree.
A 2nd ascent does not have the warm fuzzy blanket of "subtle" enhancing (have you seen all the eyes in the meadow these days!) or drilling when you think your lid is going to pop off. The 2nd ascent is more about the test of man Vs. man, than man Vs. rock. Regardless of what the rock offers to you in the way features, some of the unknown is defeated knowing you can stop and drill when you want, for the most part. A 2nd ascent does not have that luxury. Extrapolate that out and the 2nd ascent is going to be harder than the FA, and with the jigsaw puzzle of enhancements, or now invisible enhancements, the feat of completing the route becomes that much harder than it was for you guys or any other first ascensionist.
So in a nutshell, you guys were some kind of pussies for doing the FA, and with that being said, there is not a single man on earth that can match up to you guys mano a mano....
So I guess you guys are the baddest asss pussies in the world of El cap climbing????
Damn... that didn't really come out right.... I hope you get where I was going with that ;)
TR Edit:
1: you ain't going to facelift
2: get back to class
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Sep 22, 2009 - 05:38pm PT
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These WoS threads are a guilty pleasure to read.
They remind me of the police brutality videos that have been posted here. The discussion always involves some people blaming the cops, some people blaming the people who are beligerent to the cops...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 22, 2009 - 05:46pm PT
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I think if somebody would just do a second ascent, there would be a lot more room for discussion here.
Until then, it seems pretty obvious that lots of head trenching and hook enhancing has gone on all over El Cap and attracted none of the slander evidenced against this route.
My conclusion...More victims of "outside the valley local scene" abuse. If you ain't in the club, you don't get the benefit of any doubts.
Peace
Karl
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Sep 22, 2009 - 05:49pm PT
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Not true Karl on the trenching and rock damage. Those guys have been given shiit and have carried the stigma for years. The are branded. Believe it.
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