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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 15, 2009 - 11:10am PT
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To say that related word clusters on all kinds of diverse topics and then when these messages are proven true, is just coincidence and chance, is really disegenious.
It is not disingenuous, I think you have read neither the first paper, nor the response and have no idea of the statements made in the papers, nor the statistical arguments that are the basis of the initial claim or the refuting claims. This does not seem to be an issue with you at all, you know these things to be true.
You obviously dissagree with all of this, no doubt.
I disagree with it all, yes, but the conspiracy theory mentality usually cooks up an explanation which is consistent with all the observations. Given two different explanations of the same set of observations, usually I'll be drawn to the simplest one.
...is it possible to do science and contribute, and in another unrelated aspect of one's life to have faith in God, to have faith in something that is not possible to prove?
I believe the answer to this is yes, as I have colleagues who have faith in the existence of a God. Yet they do not believe in that the Bible should be taken literally, specifically, they would disagree in interpreting the apocrypha written there as having to do with what is happening now.
However, I am not one who believes in a divine presence or the supernatural.
Is it possible to have faith in God and not related to organized religious thought (including the Bible which was created by people)?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 15, 2009 - 12:19pm PT
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Ed,
Thanks for responding. Honest answers.
"To say that related word clusters on all kinds of diverse topics and then when these messages are proven true, is just coincidence and chance, is really disegenious."
Your response -- It is not disingenuous, I think you have read neither the first paper, nor the response and have no idea of the statements made in the papers, nor the statistical arguments that are the basis of the initial claim or the refuting claims. This does not seem to be an issue with you at all, you know these things to be true.
My response -- I have read the original study done by Prof. Rapi et al. as it was published in a Math Journal. It is included as an appendix in the Michael Drosnin book "Bible Code." Yes, it is a difficult read, only a statitician would find it enjoyable. I have not read through the rebuttal completely. bits and parts. We have the classic scientific debate. One side said "yes," is is beyond chance and it is meaningful, the other says "no" it is not beyond statistical chance and it is meaningless. Yet, I read these codes that are discovered and I am blown away. I cannot explain it away. I think most people can't. I see the codes, I read the codes, I know it is beyond chance, and they have significant meaning in our day and time, over and over again. Somethings science can not explain or understand at this time. Maybe one day we will. Our understanding is so limited and superficial. What we know from scientific discoveries and truths is more than likely the mere polish on a bowling ball of all the knowledge there probably is to know.
"You obviously dissagree with all of this, no doubt."
Your response -- I disagree with it all, yes, but the conspiracy theory mentality usually cooks up an explanation which is consistent with all the observations. Given two different explanations of the same set of observations, usually I'll be drawn to the simplest one.
My response -- Yes Occum's Razor. Is it always the simplist explaination? No.
"...is it possible to do science and contribute, and in another unrelated aspect of one's life to have faith in God, to have faith in something that is not possible to prove?"
Your response -- I believe the answer to this is yes, as I have colleagues who have faith in the existence of a God. Yet they do not believe in that the Bible should be taken literally, specifically, they would disagree in interpreting the apocrypha written there as having to do with what is happening now.
However, I am not one who believes in a divine presence or the supernatural.
My response -- Thanks for your honest answer. We can only agree to disagree here.
Your Q -- Is it possible to have faith in God and not related to organized religious thought (including the Bible which was created by people)?
My response -- Yes. However, I would disagree about the statement "the Bible which was created by people." Yes, written by people and copied by people, but inspired by God. Long history of God using people and working through people, in fact the Bible is mostly about just this. Seems to me God likes to do it this way. I would surmise he likes to have a relationship with his creation. Makes sense to me.
Native people before our modern era obviously believed in a Diety or Dieties, "The Great Spirit" or what have you. God has a plan for them also. That is a more advanced theologic discussion for a really long rainy day . . .
Edit:
For all interested, I will not post to the stupid thread titled . . .
"9/11 Conspiracy - Simple Minded Folk with little Science Ed"
That is a pretty sick disgusting spit-ball from the back of the class from the "dim-wit" section and I'm not biting.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 15, 2009 - 12:23pm PT
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Dingus ...... what do I think?
"Siddhartha listened. He was now listening intently, completely absorbed, quite empty, taking in everything."
If this approach is used more one will find the answers to the mystery of 911. One has to wade through tons of disinformation to "see" what happens/happened.
Just watching "Loose Change", reading Popular Mechanics or the the official version and all the chaotic chatter here, will just agitate one down a blind road that the perpetrators want you to go.
Thus they can hide in the hundred spokes of the moving wheel.
The truth lays in the hub ........
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 15, 2009 - 12:30pm PT
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The conspiracy theorists are the thousand spinning spokes obfusticating the reality of a simple, but unpleasant hub.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Sep 15, 2009 - 12:39pm PT
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In answer to Ed's question, "Is it possible to have faith in God and not related to organized religious thought (including the Bible which was created by people)?"
I am reminded of the story of Rabbi Herbert Goldstein, who sent Einstein a telegram saying, "Do you believe in God? Stop. Answer paid. 50 words".
Einstein replied.
"The most beautiful emotion we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion that stands at the cradle of all true art and science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead, a snuffed out candle. To sense that behind anything that can be experienced there is something that our minds cannot grasp, whose beauty and sublimity reaches us only indirectly; that is religiousness. In this sense and in this sense only, I am a deeply religious man".
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 15, 2009 - 12:43pm PT
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All the talk about the buidlings is barking up the wrong tree. Why won't the government explain why the Pakistani ISI chief wired $100,000 to Mohammed Atta before 911 and then traveled to washington to meet top US administration officials on 9-11 itself!
Why did Bush tell an blatant falsehood about seeing the first plane hit the tower on 9-11 (he said this right on 9-11 too) That was never televised.
Why were war games that seems designed to take air protection from those cities scheduled for 9-11? How often has that EVER Happened and how did Al Queda find out (or was it just lucky
Why was Bin Laden's family flown out of the country with no interviews while regular air traffic was shut down, all when much more ordinary muslims were being rounded up and detained?
Why are these questions never asked much less answered by the 9-11 commision.
Peace
Karl
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 15, 2009 - 12:45pm PT
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DMT,
I would disagree. One day, no matter what, we will know. It is gonna time a lot of time, but one day we will all know. And there will be "Hell to pay" literally, for those who perpetrated this crime against humanity (as well as many of the other crimes they perpetrated).
That is Karma.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 15, 2009 - 12:48pm PT
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Jan,
Good post. Touche.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Sep 15, 2009 - 02:31pm PT
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"Ever done any carpentry, electrical, drywall, or painting work? There is no way to progressively tear up floor after floor of office space for the requisite access to structural members and then repair the damage such that workers who are on those floors day in and day out wouldn't know what's going on. Similarly, you could never wire the explosives without the telecom and IT staffs instantly knowing about it. It's beyond ridiculous, it's ludicrous"--healyje
Maybe to you, sir...
In the few weeks prior to 911 a security company (owned by Jeb Bush) was contracted to "re-wire" the buildings for new high-speed capacity, as vacancy was around half, and new insurance was taken out around then.
Hardly ludicrous, in fact, probable (by cause).
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Sep 15, 2009 - 02:50pm PT
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The plain simple observable truth conclusively proved that Earth was flat, and humans could not fly through the air. The conspiracy wackos simply could not accept the plain simple truth advanced by the simpletons with all the institutional titles and credentials of their time.
A primary division of the humans is that of the thinkers who ask questions, and the simple dumb folk who ridicule the thinkers and their questions, instead of even attempting to answer the questions.
High quality entertainment, by design.
Healyje stated: "That year I prepared the daily intel staff briefs for a group of senior Generals and Admirals who were and I saw everything they saw, and before they saw it."
Healyje therein illuminates government "intel", by the glaring failure of the results, and the inability of government chaps to answer reasonable questions.
Concurrently, my good friend Healyje still is clueless of "black ops". They are based on a common military system... "I don't need to know. I don't want to know. Make no record. Just do it. And for sure as hell do not tell anyone in "intelligence" or the world will learn about it."
The concept of an organization is to pool the knowledge of many minds, to discover the best process for something. The concept of multiple "security clearance" levels, and secrecy, in an organization not only defeats the concept of forming the organization, but proves the abject stupidity (neural damage of power) of the organization members.
Further, if there is a "group" of senior Generals and Admirals, what were the other groups being told? Dumb people often reveal their ignorance in their boasts.
Healyje, I would one-up your childish "I saw everything..." boast, but that is still a touchy subject with the entire US military intelligence and security "organization".
Oh, and it is all controlled by the National Park Service, including the flat earth thing. They hold the enforceable power to "ban" Americans from National Parks, you know. That being a separate government, which one controls the other?
Enjoy the comedy.
DougBuchanan.com
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 15, 2009 - 02:53pm PT
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DMT,
Maybe I was being too subtle.
I was referring to the end of this time, on the last judgement in the "Big Sky" in front of God Almighty himself.
YES, WE WILL ALL KNOW THEN, if we don't ever come to knowing now.
But, I think we do know now, some of us do, and many are waking up.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 15, 2009 - 05:57pm PT
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"Concurrently, my good friend Healyje still is clueless of "black ops". They are based on a common military system... "I don't need to know. I don't want to know. Make no record. Just do it. And for sure as hell do not tell anyone in "intelligence" or the world will learn about it."
Pretty ignorant statement from start to finish. You have a very confused view of how the military / intel world operates. The military senior staff do not care for triggers being pulled without their explicit authorization. When a 'black op' happens, the senior staff is always aware of it, that's because today's geopolitical response timeline is now down to hours and minutes and the threat of distant reprecussions from failed ops is all too real. The only black ops they wouldn't aware of are extra-govermental - i.e. illegal - ops such as Watergate.
How many successful large-scale 'black ops' are you thinking succeed for every bungled disaster such as Bay of Pigs, the Iranian hostage rescue, or Iran-Contra? The success rate is appallingly low and as I said the best thing you can say about most ops is they get strangled in the crib.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 15, 2009 - 07:05pm PT
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The Central Intelligence Agency withheld information about a secret counterterrorism program from Congress for eight years on direct orders from former Vice President Dick Cheney, the agency’s director, Leon E. Panetta, has told the Senate and House intelligence committees, two people with direct knowledge of the matter said Saturday.
The report that Mr. Cheney was behind the decision to conceal the still-unidentified program from Congress deepened the mystery surrounding it, suggesting that the Bush administration had put a high priority on the program and its secrecy.
Mr. Panetta, who ended the program when he first learned of its existence from subordinates on June 23, briefed the two intelligence committees about it in separate closed sessions the next day.
Efforts to reach Mr. Cheney through relatives and associates were unsuccessful.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31867022/ns/politics-the_new_york_times
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 15, 2009 - 07:34pm PT
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Congress is not the senior military staff.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 15, 2009 - 07:51pm PT
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And you are sitting in Oregon so you wouldn't know sh'it either.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 15, 2009 - 08:13pm PT
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"Congress is not the senior military staff."
True but still an illegal conspiracy.
and what I was actually searching for was the fact that cheney went into an intel agency and basically set up a separate division at his bidding. Couldn't find it fast and don't care cause 9-11 isn't going anywhere as long as nobody cares about our Iraq BS.
PEace
Karl
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 15, 2009 - 09:10pm PT
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You were looking for Doug Feith and the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Special_Plans" target="new"]Office of Special Plans[/url] within the DoD which gen'ed / manipulated intel for Rumsfeld and Cheney when career CIA analysts wouldn't. Again, none of these political shenanigans is comparable to orchestrating, coordinating, and executing a domestic covert multi-agency op that involves activities more direct than talking, emailing, hitting the return key, and drinking martinis.
Werner, I may be in Oregon, but I both know exactly how long it takes to rip out and seamlessly repair dry wall and what it would take to hang a building's worth of detonator wires. I also know the [in]competence levels of our government and the limits on its capabilities. What is suggested here vastly exceeds all of them.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 15, 2009 - 09:26pm PT
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You keep talking about ripping out drywall and planting explosives.
You're light years away from how it was done. You keep focusing on this cave man technique. And you know all about black ops?
Everything you've mentioned is cave man stuff.
All of ya are not even in the ball park that's why you keep thinking impossible.
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Gene
climber
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Sep 15, 2009 - 09:36pm PT
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Pony up, Werner. What's the real scoop?
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