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slabbo
Trad climber
fort garland, colo
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Nov 23, 2009 - 10:45am PT
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Good to see the flying spirit of Bouchard still lives.
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meclimber
Trad climber
Dover, NH
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Nov 23, 2009 - 11:28am PT
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We were the party of 3 next to you guys on sunday. We had come over to do raindance-wonderwall and I had second thoughts. We ended up on a runout climb on a white streak-hotter-tranquility. Fun day out on classics, it was also a buddies first time climbing in NH, he had just moved from CO and we were trying to show him a good time. We took him to Humphreys on sat. and did wanderlust, cakewalk-hiddin in plain view, then castaways.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 23, 2009 - 01:23pm PT
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Definitely some lichen here and there. If you found "the" hold for each move that was likely
to be clean, but the route hasn't seen heavy traffic. One section, the overhanging black streak
over the climber in the first P3 photo above, was mossy and dripping wet -- all three of us had
to cheat our way past that. Added to the fun.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 23, 2009 - 01:24pm PT
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Meclimber, looked like your crew had a full-value day too.
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slabbo
Trad climber
fort garland, colo
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Nov 23, 2009 - 06:44pm PT
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Dudes ! Ya'll should do Unforgetable Fire 11b. It;s really not that runout and features a cool finishing crux at the top of the wall
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 24, 2009 - 10:45am PT
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Tomcat, which summit is that?
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 24, 2009 - 10:47am PT
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Slabbo, I'll look at Unforgettable Fire next time I'm up there. There seem to be
quite a few South Buttress routes that aren't on my radar, I'm not sure where
they go in relation to the popular routes I've done. Henry was describing a whole
bunch of them on Sunday, but I'd need to go up there with some descriptions
to get oriented.
Looking forward to Jerry Handren's new guidebook to open more doors. I like his
idea of cleaning off some forgotten classics from the 80s, good routes that lichen
has reclaimed since they're seldom climbed nowadays -- most traffic concentrating
on 10 routes.
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meclimber
Trad climber
Dover, NH
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Nov 24, 2009 - 11:03am PT
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I'll second that chiloe, the hotter and cold day area bottle neck sometimes. If it were dryer alot more options would open up to reach the upper ledge. Jacobs ladder is a great alternative. And isn't there a .9+ that goes out the arch on inferno? I've also never done the typical start to tranquility. I also get confused on the upper wonderwall area, there is like 4 routes that start off of that .6 pillar and I seem to drift between all of them trying to avoid the death pitch on wonderwall!
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tradchick
Trad climber
White Mountains
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Nov 24, 2009 - 11:23am PT
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Chiloe: That's Baldface Mtn. which is out in North Chatham. It's a peak on the left on the way out to Evans Notch from the NH side.
Great 360 views and the last 30 minutes of the hike is over huge granite slabs and blocks. Some of them were slick with water and we even found a little ice to keeps things interesting.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 24, 2009 - 11:38am PT
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Baldface, is that the one with twin summits and a ridge walk in between? If so, a great
hike! One of the few I'd compare with the Franconia ridge for that up-in-the-sky quality.
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tradchick
Trad climber
White Mountains
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Nov 24, 2009 - 12:14pm PT
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Yes that's the one! It's a long hike with big elevation gain and the last 1/2 mile can be treacherous through those granite blocks. It was my first time up there and truly spectacular! Good call on Tomcat's part!
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Alan Rubin
climber
Amherst,MA.
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Nov 24, 2009 - 01:46pm PT
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Great photos and great thread. Baldface is an excellent hike, one of the best lesser known (at least it used to be) ones in the North Country. It would be great to have some of the lesser used routes in the North Conway area cleaned up, as it does seem that most of the activity in the area is on a relatively small number of the routes. Unfortunately, however, the reason that many of those routes don't get done is that they lack decent protection. I know there is a 5.7 or so up a dike on the left side of the Wonderwall (forget the name, one of Webster's)that never gets climbed because it is virtually unprotected and I'm aware of others. I know that I'm going on dangerous ground to suggest that "the community" even consider some judicious retrobolting of certain routes, but it might ease some of the overcrowding on the relatively few routes of that grade in that area of the crag. Speaking of lack of protection, take Slabbo's recommendations with a grain of salt--yes, John, you have been know to sandbag on occasion!!!!!
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 24, 2009 - 02:08pm PT
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Alan, I know what you're saying about those scary old routes, many of them too
scary for me -- but I'm real leery of retrobolting. More bolting around North Conway
might spread out the present climbers a bit, but I think the much larger effect would
be to draw in Rumney-like crowds. As I commented at the R&S slideshow last month,
"If you bolt it, they will come."
Also, of course, it would change the character of the climbs.
One in-between alternative, which I endorse for my own routes at least, is to consider
replacing old fixed pitons one-for-one with good bolts in a similar place if a good cam
or nut won't go in. Those pins, now often broken, working loose or rusting apart,
offered decent or at least well-evaluated protection for the FA party BITD.
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Alan Rubin
climber
Amherst,MA.
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Nov 24, 2009 - 02:55pm PT
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Chiloe, I'm surely not advocating sport bolting those routes, in fact, I'm not neceassarily "advocating" any retrobolting at all, rather just raising the subject for discussion. What I am "raising" is to consider the addition of just a few bolts to totally or virtually unprotected and "never-climbed" routes (some may never have been repeated since the FAs in the '70s, or such repeats are very rare)to make them at least reasonable for competent climbers operating at the requisite grade range.I do think there is a difference worth thinking about between unprotected routes that were at or near the cutting edge at the time they were done, and such routes put up later by climbers normally operating several grades above the routes they chose to establish without adequate protection. I know of a number of routes in Tuolumne that were established (usually solo and boltless) by folks like Bacher, Yablonski,etc.(who were climbing 11s and 12s at the time) that climb sections of crackless domes at grades of 5.7 and 5.8(grades that are accessible to alot of folks but in short supply in that area). I personally feel that it was somewhat selfish of those climbers to "claim' those routes(they could have just kept their ascents to themselves) and therefore effectively foreclose the many climbers who could have enjoyed them had they placed a few bolts for protection.(This issue really only involves routes that offer no other protection possibilities except for bolts, as no one seems to have an ethical problem with folks using modern protection on crack routes that were unable to be protected at the time of the FAs because the gear to adequately protect them was not then in existence. Surely any 5.7 or 8 crack routes solo FAed by those same folks in Tuolumne would be frequently repeated by climbers who would have no hesitation placing protection in them.)This is just my opionion, but I do think it is worth some consideration.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 24, 2009 - 03:55pm PT
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Yeah, I knew you weren't advocating sport bolting. Drawing the line seems tough
though. It would be an interesting conversation over beers. Which routes?
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Alan Rubin
climber
Amherst,MA.
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Nov 24, 2009 - 04:22pm PT
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Which routes? Wow, not ready for that discussion yet. As i said I'm mainly being an agent provocateur here. Besides I'm at work and don't have my books handy--and my memory is fading with age. But, for the sake of discussion is Tranquility the Webster Wonderwall 5.7 or so that is virtually unprotected--and never done? Then, I remember doing a route on the south buttress many , many years ago with Al Long put up by Bob Anderson and Wayne Christian--Airy Arie or something--rated 5.8 (then). I recall a foothold stance with the anchors stuffed into a, probably expanding, downward pointing flake and Al leading a long way above with no pro--maybe the entire pitch--definitely do not fall conditions on both pitches. Don't know how, or if, it is climbed these days, but it could surely use at least an anchor!!!! At a harder level (so I am not as "strong" here) there are a number of routes--again mostly Webster's--on the far right side of Cathedral near Diedre that are poorly protected, overgrown and never done. But again, I'm really not pushing a wholesale retrobolting, but just suggesting that it be considered on a very limited basis on a few routes.Also, it should only be done with the consent of the FA party, if possible. I'd love to discuss this and more over beers any time. Don't get up to Conway much these days, though hopefully I'll get up there at least once this winter. Once spring rolls around again (or if the current Indian Summer conditions persist), if you plan on heading back down in this direction, let me know and we can get together. Sorry I missed your slide show in the Gunks a couple of weeks back, but had a family commitment.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Nov 24, 2009 - 04:54pm PT
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Al,
That is a very fair question to ask. And as many first ascencionists are dying off, moving out of the sport, or moving away, it is a timely conversation to have.
Keep in mind that a few well protected classics are overrun with people, and a little more dispersion of climbers would be a good thing.
Also keep in mind that tragic accidents can threaten access. The sport doesn't operate in isolation to the rest of the world. Rumor has it that a young area in ID strongly discourages really run-out moderates.
This thread started with Childrens Crudae, and I vividly recall spending 45 minutes staring at "The Mantle" the first time and choosing to downclimb and clean the whole thing. I am not a good down climber, so that choice was not made lightly. A year later, I did "The Mantle", grabbing one foot with a hand in a desperate attempt to gain the ledge despite no flexibility. Don't ask me how I pulled it off - adrenaline is a miracle substance. Since the whole climb is rated much harder than 5.9, I probably wouldn't ne in favor of retro-bolting that. But part of me......
It is a pity to see routes fall into total obscurity because moderate climbers feel unsafe doing moderate, unprotected pitches and the elite have chosen to climb on to harder stuff or FAs elsewhere.
Tranquility has some pro on the easier pitches. It was the last, 10b/c pitch that I remember being heart stopping.
In my travels, I often note that the bolts get closer together on harder climbs. The first clips are often the hardest to make. If the first ascencionist was trying to humble me, it really isn't necessary. You don't need to put up a death route to earn my admiration. The opposite is far more likely to earn it.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 24, 2009 - 05:28pm PT
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Hah, there goes that slippery slope! In my view the lower pitches of Children's
Crusade are prime examples of things that should not be retrobolted, they're
brilliant just as they are.
But anyone could have different views, and that's the risk in starting down this
path.
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cowpoke
climber
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Nov 24, 2009 - 07:41pm PT
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My goodness, I lie in bed with the trendy new diet called "the stomach flu" for a couple days and look what happens to this thread.
Fiddler on the Roof looks fabulous, Larry = kudos to you, Jim, and emac!
But, can't decide if I'm liking the virtual belay or just growing grumpier with envy and self-pity...yep, the latter.
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slabbo
Trad climber
fort garland, colo
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Nov 24, 2009 - 07:51pm PT
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Al- My man, You are wrong. Just 'cause routes don't get repeated means nothing. We did a route 12 years ago that just got it' second- BRILLIANT.
How many people do Castaways,Gill' groove,Pumping Station ?????
Sure it's nice if people repeat your f/a's but the fact remains the route is there to do - or not.
I regard new bolts "retro" as evil. You now that someone just "claimed" an f/a in the Quarries that I'm pretty sure you and Kevin did around '67
john
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