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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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This just occured to me, and although someone if not many may have mentioned it already, it has not been woven into this thread like it ought to be:
THIS ACCIDENT HAPPENED ON THE DESCENT.
Rappelling and lowering accidents happen with alarming frequency in the mountains and on the crags. It's easy to understand why - when you are leading the climb, you are focused on the lead, and because of your focus you are far less likely to make a stupid mistake.
But then you reach the top, and you relax a bit. You made it. You knocked the bastard off. You're cool, you're a hardman. You relax your mindset. You're tired, you're ready to go home, have a beer, you start thinking about the next climb, whatever.
You relax your guard, you make mistakes. I do knott know if it is true that "most" accidents happen on the descent, but we all know that a helluva lot of them do.
So be careful when you're climbing - it's dangerous, and there is always the possibility that you will end up dead if you blow it! And be especially careful after you have completed your climb, and are relaxed - this is a great time to make a simple but costly mistake.
DFU.
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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"I for one still cringe when someone wants to check my business or have me check theirs - I rope-solo for half of all my free climbing and do double check all my business and it also just grates against all of my old school sensibilities and notions of what climbing is 'all about' relative to self-reliance."
Everyone is entitled to their opinions and here's mine. I appreciate it every time someone double checks me. If you are uncomfortable with someone double checking you, get over it, they may just save your life. I have caught harness buckles not doubled back and unlocked biners on a few occasions. When I solo or I'm at the top of a pitch by myself I mentally clear my head for a second then double check my system from end to end before I climb, lower, or belay. A second set of eyes with a fresh perspective is better than you double checking yourself. When you climb with a partner your safety is their safety. If you get killed halfway up a climb you put your partner in jeopardy too.
I'm don't know the statistics in rock climbing, but if the chance of a person screwing up the system resulting is death is say 1 in 10,000 if two people check it the chance is 1 in 10,000 times 1 in 10,000. 1 in 100 million is much better odds than 1 in 10,000.
I try to remember to double check even when I "know" it's not needed. It should be part of your routine and you decrease your odds of a problem by a huge amount.
"From what I can tell the onus was on Al, regardless of any interruptions by Woody, to insure he was setup safely at the anchor whether for just being there, bringing up Wendell, or lowering Woody."
Wrong. The onus was on both of them. They were partners, they both had the responsibility to make sure the setup was safe. I double check my partners no matter how experienced they are.
"I would suspect distraction was more or less the sole culprit here and that attitudes, histories, and the interactions of personalities were very minor contributing factors at best."
With all due respect there is a lesson to be learned here and it was stated in the first post.
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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"But then you reach the top, and you relax a bit. You made it. You knocked the bastard off. You're cool, you're a hardman."
So true. I have made it a point to recognize that feeling and tell myself it's not over until I get back to flat ground. I have also said that to my partners, e.g. "we're not done yet".
It's not just rapping/lowering too, the North Dome Gully, the Kat Walk, etc. can be dangerous if you let down your guard.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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"It ain't over til you're in the parking lot."
And your car starts. And you have a beer in hand.
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WBraun
climber
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"And your car starts. And you have a beer in hand."
And then the cops show, and then ......
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Well Fet, I never said there weren't lessons to be learned - I'd say in this case there are quite a few of them. But I personally think if you or others want to have an extended discussion on reciprocal partner checking you would likely be better served by a separate thread. As to the differences between my opinions and yours, we disagree, which is o.k. by me, but sorry, there is nothing 'wrong' about anything I've written here. Before any notion of 'collective' responsibility kicks in we are each ultimately responsible for ourselves and our actions which we contribute to the whole.
EDIT: Again, if you are concluding I am assigning 'blame' or judgment in by the phrase "...the onus was on Al to..." you are entirely mistaken - my discussion was purely related to technical causality. In this or any other case, and regardless of presence or absence of any safety checks, each and every one of us is 'responsible' for securing ourselves to an anchor at the top of a pitch and checking to insure that we accomplished that as well. That's a 'fact' and not a matter of 'blame' or a 'judgment' call. And if people can't or don't recognize that, then the trend over time will be that folks will become overly reliant on reciprocal checks as a first line of defense against mistakes when such checks should really only be a last line of defense against edge cases where a mistake has somehow escaped ruthless self-checking.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Scary as hell, Locker, cuz we've all done it, but were lucky enough to get away with it [so far].
Be vigilant always.
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John Vawter
Social climber
San Diego
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I don't think it's possible for a human to be constantly vigilant while climbing. Nor necessary. It’s an activity where the degree of risk varies greatly from moment to moment. So it's necessary to recognize the situations where the potential for errors and risk to life and limb increases dramatically. That's the time to focus attention on the essential precautions to the exclusion of everything else, until you are satisfied. I would put tying in, setting up a belay, the arrival and departure of a climber at a belay, rappelling and being lowered on the short list. This is where I check and double check.
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Gene
climber
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Accident Analysis Conclusion: Ready, Fire, Aim!
So sad.
gm
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couchmaster
climber
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wbw said "Couchmaster, the accident that you are refering to at Smith, all those years ago involved a close friend of mine. She was the person at the top of the climb, and if I remember correctly, her anchor failed. Deb had a wonderful spirit about her, and her death touched many in a very profound way.
At the memorial service, there was a poem that was printed for those of us that were grieving. It had Deb's picture, and I know I have it saved somewhere; I do not know if I can find it in a timely manner, so I'll paraphrase the poem in the hopes that it helps Woody's family and friends. It really helped me 23 years ago."
When I'm gone
Think of me
But not too much
Cry for me
But not too much
Do not let your sadness at my passing
Prevent you from smiling at my memory.
That's a nice poem wbw. I hope it gives Woodys loved ones some fresh air and help from the pain they must be feeling. Regarding Trezlar, the news stories totally butchered the details, as her anchor did not fail as you suggest. We were guiding at the time (Gini Hornbecker and I) got there asap and did our best. 2 months after Deb and he partner passed away there was another one equally messed up again at Smith a short distance away. @40 feet directly below us, got there even faster but CPR for 20 min was ineffective. It seems to me that you can't get very far from these kinds of graphic details once they are inside your mind. If you want to hear them you have but to ask. If you don't, that's fine too, I totally understand.
regards
Bill
___
Edited: I need to just lay it out here now in a nice way in the short version. "The Lesson" is the title to this thread after all. It was eerily similar as Woody and Al's accident. If even a single person reads it and takes it to heart, I'll have done something good by sharing it so I will.
Deb and this big hulking fella had finished the 2nd pitch of Trezlar. A Sweet 2 pitch 5.10a crack at Smith Rocks. I believe Deb had not been able to get a piece out, and from the ledge, they decided to lower the big fella down to get it out (supposition as I cannot otherwise explain these actions). They had 2 ropes, which they had joined and ran through a rap anchor @ 10 feet to the West. They had also put a medium friend, @ #2 directly behind them for pro to be more in line with the forces of the lower, but it was only @ 1/2 way into a crumbling slot and looked insecure. The cam had a biner and about 10' from the the end of the rope was clove hitched onto the biner. (so the rope then ran over to the rap anchor where it was joined with another rope and that's where the end of it was -joined to another rope) They had untied and must have been relaxing but Deb was NOT tied into the rope at all. She had her shoes kicked off and was barefoot: the rack was off to the side. She put him on belay via an atc style device and started lowering him. She got him down @ 20-25 feet when his weight pulled her off. She was a small thing, I'd guess 90 lbs and he was the opposite at @250 lbs and a size 11-12 shoe I'd guess. When they fell, they made it @ 100 feet straight down and they each in turn struck the same ledge and then fell the rest of the full rope length. When we got there they were both still on the rope, he was 5 feet from the ground. Her belay device had locked and she was @ 20-25 feet above, his weight in effect pining her where she was. Our first response was that we could cut the rope at his waist, but we didn't have a jug and were afraid that once the weight was off the rope, we might lose the end of the rope and she would fall the rest of the way uncontrolled. We thought she was gone then, but as we were not 100 % sure, we went with the safest way which meant climbing up the descent pitch, backing up their gear to make an anchor with a lowering setup with their rope through it, cut the sling on the cam (as the knot was jammed too much to budge it and it still had the 350 lbs on it and we still didn't have jumars or a pully), and lower them down. We wanted to do that work quickly but without killing ourselves as well, because we were standing unroped and unanchored ourselves at the top on that small ledge 2 pitches up the cliff and looking at a long fall.
That shitty, rattly, half in friend held their combined weight for a full pitch fall. We gave the gear to the firemen and statements to the sheriff.
Sorry that you lost your friend. There was nothing we could do that we didn't' do. That's how it went down as near as we could see, and we were the only 2 to see it. I suspect the sheriff was not understanding what we described, however, I have a vague memory of drawing the rigging for him.
BTW, I was thinking this earlier but it needs to be said: big props, no HUGE ONES to Matt for his fast response and right choices on this one. I told him that it was a perfect thing in a bad situation, where you have a kick-assed climber who can just flash up and can get you down fast, and there on the ground is a doctor waiting to help you on the next critical step. If either one was not there......Al might not be here with us either. Shock can be sudden and it's real. Props to the Dr and all who helped or tried to assist.
I wish Woody was here and reading my words right now is all.
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wskish
Mountain climber
Saratoga, CA
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The problem is that it is not possible for humans to be vigilant 100% of the time. For instance, professional security screeners at airports routinely fail to detect guns and knives purposely placed in luggage as security tests: http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/03/airport_passeng.html
As Schneier notes, "This psychological phenomenon isn't just a problem in airport screening: It's been identified in inspections of all kinds".
So given that we can't be perfectly vigilant 100% of the time, it becomes useful to recognize those times when we might be at higher risk and hence need to be especially vigilant. While there are many potential 'vigilance triggers', one that really scares the hell of out me is 'complexity'. Complex systems are guaranteed to fail a lot more than simple systems.
In this case, the complexity of a system with three climbers and two ropes is somewhat higher than the complexity of a two-climber one-rope system. While climbers safely manage that level of complexity all the time, it is useful to be aware of situations that have a higher potential for failure and use that awareness to somehow catalyze vigilance.
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jbar
Social climber
urasymptote
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Thank you for posting. This is the second recent reminder I have had about checking and weighing my anchor before trusting it. Not long ago I caught a friend as she leaned back after tying in with a clove hitch. She had the knot wrong and started to fall. Out last week with a new climber I made sure he knew about testing his weight on the anchor before going off belay. This reminder could have saved a life.
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BillL
Trad climber
NM
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Respectfully (not regarding this specific accident), I suggest caution about collective responsibility encompassing a set of critical climbing tasks. When many people are responsible everyone has a tendancy to relax a little - how could one critical task be missed with so many looking? So the 'canvas' made up of those critical tasks has a tendancy to get addressed in sort of a shotgun pattern.
In collective responsibility, there's also a tendancy to go with what most folks are thinking (edit: or with the most persuasive) instead of independently thinking about it. When one knowledgable person is responsible or feels solely responsible for a set of critical tasks, it is more likely that each critical task will get properly scrutinized.
Of course, second checks are good. But, in this view, if a problem is missed by all, any second checker(s) would say "Geez, I'm sorry I didn't catch your mistake, Bob."
That's one view. It has backing in at least one accident-sensitive industry (edit: although I don't claim to have done the position proper justice).
Bill
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Richard
climber
Bend, OR.
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One aspect of this that hasn't been discuss is: How was Al lowered to the ground?
I'm curious fron a SAR P.O.V. I'm guessing JOSAR didn't do the pickoff.
Anyone??
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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healyje wrote, "and stunned folks couldn't simply wait for the official technical analysis before devolving multiple threads into unrestrained sprayfests."
While we have a lot more facts then we had before, we still don't have anything approaching an "official technical analysis." But that doesn't stop spray about who the "onus" was on.
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monolith
Trad climber
Berkeley
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And who is expected to provide the 'official' technical analysis?
I would be surprised if there is one, at least not the kind we expect.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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" In that regard of checking each other's harness, knots, etc., I for one still cringe when someone wants to check my business or have me check theirs - I rope-solo for half of all my free climbing and do double check all my business and it also just grates against all of my old school sensibilities and notions of what climbing is 'all about' relative to self-reliance....there's probably a lesson and warning in there for me to not be so onerous about other folks checking my business."
In my opinion, if people are being belayed/lowered of your harness, then your harness and tie-in are no longer just your business, they are also their business. Your harness and tie-in are part of their safety system. By checking them they are aking responsibility for their own safety and practicing self-reliance.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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"And who is expected to provide the 'official' technical analysis?
I would be surprised if there is one, at least not the kind we expect."
The NPS should finish their report months from now. But they dropped the ball on the initial report, so I have low expectations.
But if you look at the hard facts we have--look at Clint's summary--we only have a nutshell account and most of that is from Locker. In my opinion, there's not enough there to start pointing fingers. Who really knows how it happened? It's all speculation.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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There is no need to 'point fingers' under any circumstance regardless of reporting on the incident, technical or otherwise. Ascertaining facts has some utility, assigning 'blame' or casting 'judgment' regardless of what facts ultimately emerge has none.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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"There is no need to 'point fingers' under any circumstance regardless of reporting on the incident, technical or otherwise."
Maybe you didn't type what you meant to? Look up "onus" in a dictionary. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/onus
Edit: Locker, you are EXACTLY RIGHT!
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