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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Feb 20, 2009 - 02:27am PT
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tom woods wrote:
> Everybody here says it was either impossible to save this guy, or the rescuers were jerks.
Not true. You are the only one using the word impossible in this context. Anastasia asked the question if it was impossible to do a rescue that high; one person said that was a hard question to answer. Other people said it was impossible to evaluate the key questions about the rescue based just on the video footage, which I agree with.
Clearly rescue from that location of a mobile person is possible, since the other 3 people were rescued.
But I don't think the black and white possible / impossible is a helpful question. Many things are possible in theory but should not be attempted due to high risk.
Here's what I think the helpful questions are:
1. Were mistakes made in planning the rescue, that could be improved on next time there is a similar rescue?
I have asserted earlier that it would have been better if they had brought a sleeping bag. But I'm not sure it's that simple. Would you put the guy in it, and then leave him there alone, because nobody else has a sleeping bag / stove / tent to stay with him? Do you need 2 sleeping bags, a tent, and a stove? Does that commit you to staying there, instead of hoping to help him climb up? Decisions on what to bring may be made under uncertainty about location/condition of the victims, weather, etc. You can't properly judge a decision made under uncertainty by what the actual facts at the accident scene turned out to be that one time. Instead you have to judge the planning decisions based on a range of probable conditions at the scene. It's not simple.
2. Were mistakes made in conducting the rescue, once they reached the victims (with the actual gear they had with them)?
Can't properly judge this from the video. The extended story suggests they made a big effort. We can't say much more than that.
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darod
Big Wall climber
South Side Billburg
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Feb 20, 2009 - 10:22am PT
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Rokjoke, I don't like what you're saying because you made too many assumptions without proper knowledge. For instance you said, and I quote you "...they was FAR from dead. Conditions were NOT that deadly..." so, it sounds as if you were actually there! I mean, a first person account of the ACTUAL weather conditions at that time, that day, at that altitude. Man, we need more people like you, nobody would ever die in the mountains!!
The argentine reports said when they found them, all four were unresponsive and semi-frozen already. After spending 3 days and 2 nights without bivy gear in temps of -25C. They were extremely dehydrated, hypothermic, and one of them had signs of pulmonary edema, but to you—the expert—that's "FAR from dead". The rescuers spent more than an hour trying to reanimate them, giving them warm fluids, and after that time, the 3 Italians seem to be in better shape. Still, 4 people were assigned to the each of the Italians, and 5 to Federico who was in worse shape then the rest. After that (10 hours have elapsed since the rescue group left their camp in the AM) they spent an extra 4 hours trying to take the guide back to the summit and the relative safety of the canaleta. But he sadly didn't make it.
So of the about 7 hours they spent with Federico you saw a snippet video of a couple of minutes and you say you agree with the father that says "they left him to die"...I don't know, I guess your judgement is impaired, and you're not even at altitude!
During those hours they spend with the guide, at times they carried him, at times he walked assisted by the group, at times they improvised a litter with some rope they had. The people trying to save these guys were suffering from hypothermia themselves by now, and what you saw was the FINAL minutes of this effort.
I do agree on something that other people have said, $US500.00 is a lot of dough in Argentina, there's no excuse to no have at least a litter in the high camp, or every camp on that mountain. A true SAR team also. But my guess is, in the conditions Federico was in, it probably wouldn't have matter all that much anyway.
R.
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Feb 20, 2009 - 10:57am PT
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I've been doing this SAR stuff since I was a kid, and it's not rocket science, but a little experience and forethought can go a long way.
Clint, your question is basically my question that I've been asking this entire thread, but then I got a bit punchy toward the end.
Given the same situation tomorrow, what do you do? What can we learn from this tragedy. I'm trying to glean a lesson from this that might come in handy someday.
Someone stuck on the wrong side of a 22,000 mountain in a storm.
Bringing gear for yourself and the victim is pretty standard SAR stuff, maybe not on a search where you don't know if you will find the victim, but on a rescue in winter mountain conditions, I would think you'd bring a stove, some sort of bivy gear, and some sort of sleeping bag.
You have to know, that you might be waiting with the victim for a while, SAR is slow sh#t. If you give the victim the bag, you might freeze your ass off, so you consider bringing two.
Extent of injuries? Don't know? Bring a few things you can improvise with. If the victim hasn't controlled the bleeding by the time you get there, it won't matter anyway. Can you splint?, tape and sleeping pad, tape and the guys axe.
Extra gear can be spread out among the team members. If you go to light at the start, you make things harder at the end. If you really go too light, you run the risk of being useless.
Throw in a light rope. Ropes, need something to attach them to, in snow? bring a few pickets and screws maybe. Slings weigh little, but are damn handy. Do you know how to make a 3:1 and add a pulley to make it a 5:1 or 6:1. Lowering is easy, and fast, we all know how to do that.
Not for the guys running into the field to get there and do the work, but what is the helicopter situation? Will the chopper gods bail you out of a really gnarly carry out? What is the plan if the chopper can't make it. Can you sit out the wait?
Say it is yourself and five of your buddy's to pull a semi conscious person over the summit. How are you going to do it?.
I don't know what these guys had on them, and I don't know what their plan was, I wish I did. It would help us learn something.
Expecting a body recovery, only to find a live and stable victim, could throw a serious wrench into the works and I don't judge these guys.
If all I can take from this is expect the unexpected, then fine.
If someday I find myself in the same situation, and truly understand what these rescuers faced, I would want to be able to say I did all that I could.
I also know about the nagging thoughts in the back of the head when you get to victim, and don't have the gear. You packed light because you had a long walk ahead, but now you need something critical.
I've always been lucky with this. Either, we pulled it off by the skin of our teeth, or the helo gods bailed us out, and no one but us rescuers knew that we f-up.
Foresight-thinking ahead, come from experience, and learning from others. If I can't experience this until I walk a mile in their shoes, then I'd like to learn from it.
Tom
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 20, 2009 - 11:23am PT
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Hahaha Rocky
I believe it was Lambone that was the arm chair evaluator of what should have been done and what wasn't, on that 2004 rescue on El Cap where the Japanese died of exposure.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Feb 20, 2009 - 12:25pm PT
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i may not see eye to eye with rox, but at least he doesnt suck the cox of climbers he considers to be better than him like dmt does...
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 20, 2009 - 12:38pm PT
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Rocky
The guys number was up. All second guessing is too late.
If your number is up even the best of the best will not save you.
In America they have what's so called the best medical facilities in the world and still ...... they can not save everyone.
His dad is basing and evaluating his sons death on pure emotion. (Normal)
We had a drowning years ago up at the Emerald Pool (top of the mist trail), one very very hot summer day. We all ran up, yes ran full speed in 100 degree temps. I took my shirt off and was bare so I was unidentified as a sar responder.
I was running the video camera to document the response and the attempt to revive the victim when some guy comes up to me and says, "You heartless fuking bastard turn that thing off, have you no respect".
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Feb 20, 2009 - 12:48pm PT
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Rocky, they may have done everything you are complaining about- the video is short.
When I was fresh out of college I saved up some money and went down to SA to get some high altitude experience. We summited a peak and on the way down came across a guided party. One of the clients had pulmonary edema and was in a bad way. Her guide had to get her down quickly so he left one of his other clients with us to take down. It was snowing and dark, we were inexperienced and exhausted. It was surprisingly difficult to get the client down, even though he could walk just fine.
On a bigger harder mountain in Pakistan I was so loopy I know I could not have done a dam thing for anyone. After that I was done with mountains- I'm not cut out for it.
The margins are thin. What seems reasonable to expect at 12,000 feet may not be at 20,000+, especially if all involved are exhausted, impacted by the altitude (it has weird effects), or both.
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high guide
Mountain climber
bend, or
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Feb 20, 2009 - 01:02pm PT
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Hey I just read the story. But I am sorry a lot of it is wrong. I was working on the mountain at the time. I was a camp 2 moving to camp 3 then summited when the rescue team brought down one of the clients.
First they were not on the Polish glacier, there was no avalanche that killed the lady. And yes the rescue was very disorganized.Also the storm was not that bad I moved to High camp in it, with happy clients!
They did not ask any guides for help (I was at high camp and did not even know there was a rescue) I could make it to the summit in 4-5 hours not Days.
The reports the press got in Mendoza was very confusing, and they later filled in the blanks.
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Feb 20, 2009 - 01:04pm PT
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I guess my point is that I urge people to please think about these things before you leave your support behind.
If you are involved in an organized rescue, as a rounded up volunteer or a trained team member, ask questions of yourself, the plan, and the boss. The boss may have forgotten somethings in the heat of the moment
Can you take care of yourself up there?
Can you take care of the person you are going to rescue?
Does plan make sense? Is there a plan? Is there a back up plan?
Are these people I am with going to get me killed?
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Feb 20, 2009 - 01:06pm PT
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High Guide- give us your thoughts!
I've been ranting to keep this thread alive, but you have actual info.
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high guide
Mountain climber
bend, or
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Feb 20, 2009 - 01:15pm PT
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You have to remember The summit of Aconcagua is over 22,000 feet. Edema and other factors play a big role in safety. As an American guide I always have certain tools, rope, sat phone,radio, bivi sack, meds. If you climb on the big peaks you should always have a partner. Just to check each other out, edema can come on quickly.
You should always remember the summit is half way you have to get down!!
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 20, 2009 - 01:28pm PT
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high guide
Did these local rescuers went up for a body recovery or they know that the subject was alive . Also what happen to the rest of Italian on the team ?
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TYeary
climber
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Feb 20, 2009 - 01:51pm PT
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High Guide makes great some points. Rocky, I understand what you are railing about. I do. But Werner has it right.
It's time to let it go. Recriminations and what ifs won't bring him back. None of us were there, as far as I know. We can only try and learn something from this. Unfortunitly, it may only be found in High Guide's post.
Tony
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rescue76
Trad climber
colorado springs
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Feb 20, 2009 - 02:17pm PT
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RJ
Your long spiels are all conjecture. You havent participated in a mountain rescue, and by your own admission have only been to 14,000 a few times, and above 16,000 once.
And your comments about 6 Marines being able to save him...please, my mountain rescue team is almost kept in business soley by military folks going out and getting in trouble. Your fantastical Marines dont exist.
The more you type, the more you try and convince yourself. I suggest you direct all of this enegery and the obvious hours you have of free time, and volunteer on a mountain rescue team. Get out there and do some rescues at altitude. Better yet, go to Argentina and join the volunteer team there, then you can experience the same mission profile of which you are so highly critical. Just be sure to get back to us with how it all works out.
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Feb 20, 2009 - 03:16pm PT
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We did three marines stuck on the cliffs above the ebensbacher ledges this summer. They thought the were climbing Whitney.
But they had been "certified" to rappel, so with a little coaching, they were an easy rescue.
So if a guide was sitting in a tent, with clients, nearby, there were other available resources.
Not to blame these guys, they might not of known about the guide, but here's a lesson maybe we can take from this, know your resources.
What do you have that you could use in a pinch?
When I've been short staffed for a rescue, I've stopped people on the trail and shanghaied them into working. It's not rocket science, with a plan, often you just need more man power. How much training do you need to lift and walk?
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high guide
Mountain climber
bend, or
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Feb 20, 2009 - 03:34pm PT
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Of the three Italians and guide two lived. they had to be dragged down to 16,000' then flew out. They were in bad shape lots of frost bite.
It was a bad year on Aconcagua 6 deaths!
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Feb 20, 2009 - 03:58pm PT
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I always ask myself when reading these threads, what would Doug Buchanan do?
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jstan
climber
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Feb 20, 2009 - 03:59pm PT
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I would not know about altitude as I have been only as high as 14,000+. However the time I spent midwinter hiking in the Adirondacks tells me this. If the party dressed as I saw in the video were exposed to temperatures much below -25ºF with wind chill in addition, lifting and carrying a person would immediately lead to frost bite of the lungs. If the temperatures were that low I would have expected to see the rescuers moving around a lot in order to keep warm. But possibly their core temperatures also were dropping.
I think the mere existence of the video persuades us the conditions were something other than what they actually were. If we knew what was being said perhaps we might hear the leader's instructions organizing the effort. As it is I have to say I just don't know what is actually happening.
I know if my feet were already frost bitten and my hands were largely useless I would be pretty slow getting a leader's instructions carried out. Tying a knot at -35ºF in heavy wind chill? You get one shot at it. No more. Then a longish wait to warm up again. The fingers just won't move.
While I am on the subject I will here reveal the most important contribution I made to winter rock climbing. Your climbing pants have pockets, right?
Cut the bottoms out of the pockets.
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Feb 20, 2009 - 04:06pm PT
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Rockjox ..
.. my guess is that this event has triggered some sort of emotional distress from somethign that happened before in your life ..
.. what happened to you? ..
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TYeary
climber
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Feb 20, 2009 - 04:14pm PT
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John Wayne is a myth.
If they would not have left their buddy behind, under these cirumstances, there would have been more bags to fill.
Tony
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