Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jan 30, 2009 - 09:09pm PT
|
roehl -- "Speculation is all we have all else is self deception."
Not we ---- it's all YOU have.
|
|
Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
|
|
|
Jan 30, 2009 - 09:41pm PT
|
Hey Karl-Thanks for addressing my question earlier about our awareness of who we are before life and after death. I need to reread your post a few times to digest it all. Your experience with meditation is intriguing.
To repeat the other question presented to you: Can you remember before you were born?
Frank
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
|
|
|
Jan 30, 2009 - 09:50pm PT
|
"Thinking you've got the truth is a form of madness...."
headed for the Quote thread, Joseph Campbell wing, down the way from "I don't need Faith, I have experience."
|
|
Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
|
|
|
Jan 30, 2009 - 11:04pm PT
|
Just reread this whole thread. It would be fun to sit around a real campfire and have this discussion ! :DD
A majority of these posts are all about theory. Is there or is there not a god or perhaps maybe...but I don't know.
One can debate theory forever and never come to a conclusion until you put the theory to the test. Does it or does it not prove itself. I have put the theory to the test. It has proven itself to me. God is real and made his realness known to me.
I challenge seekers to try it. Start perhaps by reading just Jesus Words in the New Testament. Believe them and Him, then live by them. See what happens. Prove or disprove the theory of a real, living God that loves and cares for you and has provided a pretty special life for yo if you tune into Him.....or not.
Check it out like I did years ago. I was making not great life decisions and sometimes wounding others as well as myself. Since Jesus, I have been going to the light rather than the things I don't want to do or be.
Just a thought from a fellow pilgrim on this great planet. Peace and Joy, Lynne
|
|
jbar
Social climber
land of the lost
|
|
|
Jan 31, 2009 - 12:50am PT
|
A ship without a rudders like a ship without a rudder
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jan 31, 2009 - 12:55am PT
|
SB PURPORT
A godless man sinks into the ocean of nescience by the weight of his material acquisition.
Advancement of material science without God consciousness is a heavy load on the head of human society, and so one must take heed of this great warning
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Jan 31, 2009 - 01:03am PT
|
Del asked
"Awareness during deep sleep -- I have not heard of this before. I've experienced lucid dreaming spontaneously on a few occasions. It's not what you were talking about but it is related. I searched briefly on the web for information but didn't find much. Do you know of any journals, books, or web resources that describe the sleep research you mentioned?
Karl, I forgot to add -- do you remember yourself before birth?"
I found the research online quite some time after I realized that I was never really asleep in the sense of being unaware. I thought I bookmarked it but I just don't have the time to hunt it down since I'm headed to India in a week or so. (I'll bug ya'll from there) It was interesting to have my experience validated without having preconceived it.
But you could see that it's pretty straightforward. Deep sleep is a Delta brainwave at 1-3.5 hrz. Experienced meditators are regularly measured to reach Delta levels.
Its funny. Unfortunately for my girlfriend, I snore when very tired. It not infrequently that, while sleeping, I'll even hear the far-off distant sound of my own snoring. Sadly for her, at the time it doesn't sound far off, nor distant. I could also be snoring and not be aware of it at all, although I maintain a core awareness, and have noticed surfacing from the sleep state, the reemergence of sense awareness. Hearing the external world just sort of dawns on you as you shift awareness.
It happens all the time that she might say "You're snoring" and I wasn't even aware I was sleeping.
So remembering yourself before you were born is a tricky proposition. In the deep sleep state, there is no sense of change so there isn't a gauge to sense time or to retrieve memories of "self" I can remember what it felt like to be in deep sleep but I can't place a time to it, only the sense of "Being" I think the pre-birth state could easily be the same but how to prove that?
Many people, including me, have a sense of past life memories, and certain facts can be validated from that, say, that they remembered something about a time period that they didn't know but did research to determine that indeed such a thing happened during those times. Problem is, somebody can always say "you must have seen it somewhere and then forgotten"
Think of it this way, in this life we consider memory to be this vital function that we associate as central to our identity. Yet a person could have amnesia and still exist in the here and now.
And we all have amnesia. How many of you remember what it was like to be two years old? You can bet you were two years old! Our ability to recall is limited by the fact that our minds and "sense of the world" shift over time as we grow up and the function of memory doesn't function well too far outside of our rational mental construct of the world as it is.
So a memory of what it feels like to be two, or to be pre-born, is more like an intuitive feeling space as our awareness is more pure beingness and less ideas and concepts that are structured and memorable when we are infants.
Yet the two year old contains the information in it's DNA to become the 50 year old, and theoretically, the soul whose conscious memory is wiped nearly clean, contains the karmic imprint that manifests in our present life.
I know some 90 year olds who are calmer and happier in some ways than when they were gainfully employed. Still, they might not remember what day it is, nor very basic things about their life like the telephone number they've had for 30 years.
We assume our lives and existence are only valid on the terms we are experiencing them at this time in our lives, but a view of the course of this life alone should show that that is only an assumption and not reality.
Peace
Karl
|
|
Rudder
Trad climber
Santa Rosa, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2009 - 01:20am PT
|
jbar wrote: ""A ship without a rudders like a ship without a rudder""
Precisely. lol
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
|
|
|
Jan 31, 2009 - 01:37am PT
|
a lack of a rudder, is of course, a rudder.
Do you want to accept the given map?
Or do you need to map it out? Do you want to see how well it works? Advice is great, but ultimately, you yourself, have to Decide,
|
|
paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
|
|
|
Jan 31, 2009 - 01:51am PT
|
Braun-
All you have is the fantasy or your belief! You can't prove anything; you can only impose on others what you wish were true. The imposition of religious dogma has been disastrous to humanity. Look around at the reality of a world poisoned by religious dogma and enjoy.
|
|
Rudder
Trad climber
Santa Rosa, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2009 - 03:22am PT
|
Jaybro wrote: ""a lack of a rudder, is of course, a rudder.""
That's true, too! ;)
|
|
Captain...or Skully
Social climber
North of the Owyhees
|
|
|
Jan 31, 2009 - 09:29am PT
|
Rudder nonsense......Haha!
|
|
eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
|
|
|
Jan 31, 2009 - 10:30am PT
|
What are the chances that any of the Christians here would, in fact, be Christian if you were born in, say, Saudi Arabia, which is around 98% Muslim? I would think that any reasonable person would answer, very low. So to you God-believers, is it that it doesn't matter what you believe in as long as you have belief (Islam is just as good as Christianity)? Or, would your answer be more along the lines of because of my karma (or whatever) God would make sure that I was born in a Christian nation?
If Christianity (or whatever religion) is truly the correct one, doesn't it seem like God has not provided a level playing field?
|
|
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
|
|
Jan 31, 2009 - 01:06pm PT
|
I believe in God, but I do not accept modern religions notion that God is restricted to this or that religion. I believe that when Jesus said that he was the only way, that he was referring to the Christ. There isn't just one Christ. Many Beings on Earth have been the Christ. Including Buddha and Krishna because it is not the person or the personality but their oneness with their source which is oneness with all life.
Paul said to die daily to the carnal mind and put on the mind of Christ. If this can only be done by one person, then why would he say this?
The Christ mind is oneness with God.
The antichrist is separation from God, which is what the story of Genesis is about.
Personally I do not care for this labeling of religions or saying that I am this or that religion. Most of the major religions on this planet have lost their way. This is what revelations talks about when it talks about most churches having lost their first love. This is because they are infected with the ego, the antichrist. I am not a Christian, or a Buddhist, or a Moslem, or a Hindu. I am a follower of the way. The way out of separation and back into oneness with God. I seek Truth because it is Truth that will set you free. Do I have the full truth? Nope. I don't feel that I do.
It is only through oneness that prays are answered, that one can achieve heaven, that one can achieve full realization or any of the other goals religions or spiritualist talk about.
Jesus said. " I and my father are one". Understand that, and you have the key to knowing and experiencing God.
A book that I highly recommend to anyone who has searched and is now pissed off at Christianity is "I Love Jesus, I Hate Christianity" by Kim Michaels. It set my mind free. I even recommend it to those who are happy with Christianity. You might be surprised at what you find. I know that I have been.
|
|
Studly
Trad climber
WA
|
|
|
Jan 31, 2009 - 01:45pm PT
|
Well said John.
|
|
Rudder
Trad climber
Santa Rosa, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2009 - 03:14pm PT
|
Dr. F. wrote: ""Sorry Lynne, its not personal, ""
It's one thing to say that there are a percentage of people that are likely duped. It's another to single out just one and say you know what's in her mind/heart. That's not really necessary to make a point, unless Lynne was your only point.
It read personal to me, and being that perception is reality... well, you know. ;)
|
|
luggi
Trad climber
atwater california
|
|
|
Jan 31, 2009 - 03:39pm PT
|
Dr F...How can you possibly be so sure of yourself and others could be so wrong. What do you have some divine knowledge bestowed upon you. You attack others for their beliefs. When I read your stuff..I think of a person who has knowledge but no wisdom...which the ability to use that knowledge most effectively. You attack Lynne...for what purpose? This was just an exchange of thoughts...stimulate ones brain. I guess you must have come out of a different swamp when all the molecules came together just right.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!