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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 23, 2009 - 03:52pm PT
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The notion that all those who were "detained" were captured on the field of battle is utter childish nonsense. The notion that no American citizens were wrongfully taken away is likewise utter childish nonsense.
The actions of the Bush Cabal were more intended to protect them from dissent than us from the boogieman.
911 happened on Bush's watch after plenty of warning. If nothing else he let it happen by the very act of doing nothing. He gets no credit for preventing the incredibly rare act of a successful attack on our country. Had he not impeded the intelligence agencies 911 would have been prevented by them as they have prevented hundreds of previous attempts.
If "enemy combatant detainees" are tried and found guilty Obama will likely care less if it makes Bush look good. What matters is doing the "right" thing and doing it legitimately.
Unlike that hypocritical drug addled cretin Limbaugh who blatantly and traitorously declared he wants Obama to fail, Obama seems to want to do what's right for the country.
Taking a year or more to sort out the mess at GITMO is quite reasonable as it represents the simultaneous intent to not rush to judgement or exoneration. And allows some time to make what amends may be necessary.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Jan 23, 2009 - 04:22pm PT
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Fatrad wrote: No US citizens at Gitmo, only foreign combatants, find another analogy. They are not entitled to the protections of the US Constitution.
My post to Lois isn't saying her hub was sent to GITMO(!); just that he was treated as such. Your point is moot.
Bluering wrote: Uh, yeah, Happie, they were captured in combat...not taken out of their houses as innocent people.
Were do you get your news and information!? These people were not all captured in combat. Your point, too, is moot.
And Lois - I was NOT talking about "gimo detainees." I asked about a scenario of how YOU(or anyone) would feel if YOUR SPOUSE was treated this way. Not if they were an alleged terrorist and treated so. As they are, today.
Because - there ARE women, mothers, sisters, aunts, teachers and neighbors of some of these men who did NOTHING to warrant the treatment.
SHAME on each of you for being so cold-hearted. Or, in charity, pity on you for being so ignorant.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Jan 23, 2009 - 04:22pm PT
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But do remember - Ignorance is no excuse for breaking the law!
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 23, 2009 - 04:47pm PT
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Then you should've been fired, prosecuted, and be bending over for your cellmate.
I don't pay cops to be self-appointed thugs.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jan 23, 2009 - 04:50pm PT
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Wow, 215 posts. Can I make it 216?
EDIT
Leave Fattad alone. He is a good man deep down, he is just a bit delusional.
Hi Jeff. ;-)
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 23, 2009 - 04:55pm PT
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Rogue cops should be removed from the street.
Sorry, if you're trying to look like a streetwise badass, it's not working.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 23, 2009 - 04:56pm PT
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Happie, you're correct that not all were captured on a battlefield, in combat. However, you make it sound like they're taking US citizens from their homes and sending them to Gitmo...they're not. Padilla got a trial, in the US and was found guilty.
The others, IMO, don't get the same privaledges as a US citizen. Doesn't mean we have to treat them as animals, but they don't have the constitutional rights of a US citizen.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Jan 23, 2009 - 05:05pm PT
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Blue - I said NOTHING about US citizens in Guantanamo. You're imaging that.
Lois - I think I have decided that you simply do not have a very high skill level in reading comprehension. I forget, often, how lucky I am (spray alert: I tested at 93rd, 96th and 97th percentile in reading/comprehension tests at 20 years of age).
Like a 5.12 climber who can't guage whether an easy route is 5.5 or 5.8, I often forget that written concepts are sometimes not clear to the reader.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 23, 2009 - 05:14pm PT
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I don't know Lois, I've never been incarcerated there. ;-)
I have heard that federal prisons holding white collar criminals tend to be more lax, but I do not know much about it really.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 23, 2009 - 05:22pm PT
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Yeah, just don't tell anyone. ;-)
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 23, 2009 - 05:47pm PT
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Lois, Happiegirl was speaking specifically about wrongly imprisoned people. Their spouses do not deserve the hell they are put through in not knowing anything about the where abouts and welfare of their loved ones.
But as usual you glean that which you want to see and ignore the larger truth in front of you.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Jan 23, 2009 - 07:07pm PT
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Lois - I didn't say you were dumb. You got me beat, by a gigantic amount, in the ability to handle finances, for one thing. You were obviously better able to follow through with education and career-building, and you haven't gotten fired from the majority of your jobs, as I have.
People have different skills, or gifts. Either reading comprehension is not one of yours, or you intentionally obfuscate written scenarios that you don't agree with. I'd hate to imagine you are manipulative in that way, but perhaps you are, without even being aware you do it.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 23, 2009 - 07:15pm PT
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Obviously lousy shots.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
somewhere without avatars.........
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Jan 23, 2009 - 07:49pm PT
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Hmmm... Read more, spew less, maybe? Loosely translated as 'know wtf you're talking about before you open your pie hole'. Always a good thing for all of us to follow.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 23, 2009 - 10:49pm PT
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LEB writes
"If you are planning to harm me, I really don't want you running around anywhere near me. Your "civil rights" really don't matter a whole lot to me at that point. Since I am a woman and can't particularly protect myself very well in physical encounters with men, I expect someone else in authority to get you the hell out of my life. Maybe the guy who plans to mug me at the ATM machine is really a victim in his own right. Karl, ask me if I give a sh#t. "
And Lois, how does that have ANYTHING to do with 99% of Gitmo detainees who are generally a bunch of non-english speaking, impoverished people from far off Afghanistan and Iraq? They never had a chance to harm you or any of us here. The Saudi 9-11 hijackers that came over from GERMANY aren't the average Gitmo detainee.
Which brings us to the whole "enemy combatant" lie. I can see if some spy comes to the US to commit a terrorist act, that might be an "enemy combatant" but if we go to some foreign country, invade, and pick somebody out of their house, how could they be an enemy combatant?
Would you be an "enemy combatant" if you fought foreign invaders without a uniform within the US?
Peace
Karl
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 23, 2009 - 10:57pm PT
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Uh, Karl get your facts straight. All of the Afghanis were sent back soon after the Karzai government was established.
Everyone left in Gitmo after that were terrorists from other countries, (largely Saudis) that no one wanted back.
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Sir loin of leisure...
Trad climber
X
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Jan 23, 2009 - 11:15pm PT
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they can come stay with me...they will fit in nicely to my world domination plan...first I,m bombing france...
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 23, 2009 - 11:29pm PT
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"Well, Karl, that is why I said hearings were in order. If evidence supports the fact that the given persons have done nothing to warrant detention, then absolutely they should be released. Simply being of middle eastern ethnicity is not a reason to detain someone (if, indeed, such is the case)."
Lois, that's basically what I (and Obama) have been saying...'cept you've been characterizing it as some kind of liberal stupidity. :-)
What to do with those folks is actually presently simple.
What to do with the folks who aren't tried because there isn't enough evidence to try them, or who are probably terrorists but are released, is the more difficult. Still, it's a bed that was made and we will have to deal with it.
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Manjusri
climber
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Jan 24, 2009 - 01:43am PT
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It is a big deal to innocent people being held there, and therefore should be to us for moral reasons. But it's also a huge foul-up in terms of national security and diplomacy and needs to be turned around immediately for security reasons alone.
The process by which many of these people were selected has no credibility, and the way they've been handled makes prosecuting many of them in any legitimate court next to impossible. Which is a huge deal considering we don't really know who's innocent and who is truly dangerous. That is exactly what courts are supposed to figure out.
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