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WBraun
climber
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"5.10 climbers and below have to follow the rules ..."
That's right.
The elite make the rules as they seem fit and as they go along.
Just look at our governments in our world today for example.
Just another sarcastic truthful WB post .....heh heh.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Yes,
This is cool that we get some from the current generation posting on this thread!
‘Nice to see more than us crusty old dads arguing over style and picking the lint out of our toes.
(Not that there's anything wrong with it)
Thanks Coz,
Please take your time with those answers; after all you’ve now had years to think about it and if you write anything hastily here, we will just hastily paw all over it! Hahaha.
Here's one more straightforward category of questions which I formulated:
You guys obviously spent a lot of time up there, climbing day after day, sometimes resting. If you read Tommy Caldwell's account of free climbing the Dihedral Wall, it's quite clear that he totally racked his body doing that thing; he talks about sometimes working on it all day, many days in a row, then adding to some of those days by coming down and bouldering in the evening! I read recently that he has early-onset arthritis.
So my 2 additional questions:
 I might simply ask, knowing what you guys know now, what would you have done differently? That’s pretty open-ended (obviously you would have sent the last pitch for starters!)
So this second question is fairly confined. Purely in an athletic training and recovery sense, what did you learn about spending that much time up there cranking away, what feedback did you gather which would in hindsight have instructed you to do things differently, to assure that your body’s were maintained in such a way that success would have been the most well supported?
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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The pre-placed gear issue should have been mentioned prominently in the article. Everyone knows it's a much harder to place gear on the lead then to merely clip it.
Given that, even if the team had free climbed that last bit, they could not really have claimed a "free" ascent.
There is pretty much no way around that fact.
I do find it interesting that the very proponents of "adventure" and "letting the rock have a chance" are being so cagey on this point.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Mark,
I am definitely with you and Max that a pinkpoint ascent [listen to me, I learned a new word!] where the gear is pre-placed is not a legit free ascent. However these days people even cheat on sport climbs by pre-hanging their draws! But in many climbers' camps, a pinkpoint is considered a free climb. I think they did a good enough job in the article about defining their style, to the point of showing the photographs with the pre-placed gear [which is what caught my eye originally] and later in prose, mentioning that all pitches were either redpointed or pinkpointed. So in fairness I don't think they were being cagey, because they could have chosen to selectively avoid showing any photos in the magazine that showed pre-placed gear. [Unless you refer to this posting on McTopo, where I don't remember seeing any preplaced gear photos showing up until the magazine article was scanned and shown.]
I also don't see the "adventure" particularly, for that implies some sort of risk, and climbing El Cap without fixed ropes is the usual way. They knew they could get up the route by aiding it, although their ability to free climb it was always in doubt. But I'm not convinced that uncertainty of style of finishing it makes it an adventure, maybe you need a bit more than that? Then again, every El Cap route is an adventure, so there you go. But man, those boys sure knew how to live on the wall in style, that I love!
I am very confused and perplexed, however, that Coz would write,
"Who cares about a fixed stoppers, laugh it off my friend."
If this is true, then who cares about rap bolting the South Face of Half Dome?
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Pete,
Hell yeah, take a look at that shot of Kurt stemming that corner. Kurt's thinking, "this is hard as hell, I'm not pumped, I can keep moving, I think I see a spot up there that I can rest".
Now take the gear away, "this is hard as hell, I'm not pumped, I hope I can get some gear up there, I hope I have the gear I'll need up there. I'm pretty run out right now, I hope I can stop soon and plop in a cam. Sh#t this is tough I can keep moving, I think I see a spot up there that I can rest, gawd, I hope so. I'm gonna die if I don't get something in soon".
It makes a difference.
Sport climbing, yeah, not as much difference but still a difference.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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I agree, pinkpointing El Cap and claiming a free ascent is ghey. Leaving your welded stoppers/pitons/whatever behind because you are too lazy, tired, or more worried about completing your 'free' climb is even worse.
The only other excuse is that it was physicaly impossible to remove the pieces you hammered in, and in that case...well...go back to Trad climbing 101 class. Nut's don't have to hammered in a foot back into the crack to hold a fall.
I don't care who you are or how hard you climb, don't belidle my opinion just because I'm only a fat aid climber. I have every right to want to climb clean pristine cracks up on the Cap as everyone who climbed it before me and everyone who dreams of climbing it in the future.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Yes Mark and Pete:
In the style deconstruction mode, these seem to be accurate distinctions that you are drawing, certainly where natural protection is concerned.
Just to bend the mind around this a little; consider that:
When Bachar, establishing the Bachar Yerian, put in his bolts, he was aiding and affixing pre-placed protection. (He calls it A0 or A1! I have to call BS on that, with those run outs and then jumping on hooks, it’s more like modern A3+)
Any ground-up bolted route leaves pre-placed protection. Yes of course, we know that dealing with the rock on its own terms, the purest style for non-bolted traditional climbing is to place your own gear. I am just toying with perspectives and distinctions here.
In the late 70s and early 80s, we didn’t call it pinkpointing, some of us called it “frigging”, meaning dinking around on a pitch, maybe hanging or aiding some to get the gear in. (Free + some "rigging" & it was meant as a derogation).
As you earlier characterized it Mark: "Taking Steps" with style.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Sure, he's hanging on a dinking little hook, looking at a giant honkin' fall if it slips as he drills a bolt. That's badass. Didn't he go back and do the second ascent and the FFA a few days later?
I'm fully behind Kurt and Coz as far as adventure and giving the rock a chance but let's call a spade a spade. Pinkpointing an El Cap route is not Free Climbing an El Cap route.
I'm still all over their ascent. It was great, it was masterful, it was ground breaking. BUT at the end of the day, it was a free ascent of a gear route with some of the gear pre-placed.
It was a step.
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The Alpine
Big Wall climber
Tampa, FL
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Whatever... its just rock climbing. You guys all know how they did it. Grab pull grab clip pull grab.....
If you got a problem with the style go show us how you would do it.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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If you look at my post and parse it, I’m not directly disagreeing with you Mark.
Also I edited a bit to clarify that frigging was once frowned upon.
My point was to really look at the subtleties here; yes Bachar went back and performed a free ascent: but with fixed protection (bolts). I’m not saying this justifies a pink point as the cleanest ascent. Just saying there are interesting nuances here if you want to look at them.
A lot of modern high-end free climbers now look at “Trad” as purely putting gear into routes, quite often with full pre-rehearsal, so ground up has almost completely lost its context. Except that when they do it ground up on site, they know and recognize that that is better style.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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I understand what you're saying Tarbuster. Now, if the Muir team had gone up had placed a bolt everywhere they left gear for free climbing protection we wouldn't be having this discussion. (We'd be having another and boy that one would be hot, eh?)
Climbing a pitch and clipping bolts is a lot easier than climbing a pitch and placing gear, and I'll add, takes some of the adventure out of the climb.
And yeah, the nuances... A fixed pin on one ascent that isn't there on the next ascent, an extra long sling hung on a bolt on a sport route. I think we're pretty clear on that.
I think we all agree though, in Yosemite, the tradition is to place gear as you go on the crack routes. A team leaves the ground, places all the gear, takes it all out and never weighs the rope or the gear.
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Well done Justen. Hard core. Kurt and Coz, you guys were an inspiration with that route. All climbing "ethics" will eventually be subject to controversy outside of free soloing I suppose. This brings to light the concept of "relative truth". The fact that we often define our own truths and we often feel that "what is true for me should be true for everybody." Kind of an impossible situation if you ask me. There exists for us in climbing no Grand Tribunal, no "Law", no Field manual, no Governing Body. And for that I think we can all agree we should be thankful. We gotta look to the past in order to learn, and look to the future for inspiration and to gain an awareness of how our actions on the stone will affect others to come. Thats what keeps me from adding a bolt to a runout section of 5.7 on Nutcracker when I'm a bit skeered. A bit of respect and reverence should temper our decisions in the moment. You guys seem to have that and your routes reflect both reverence and respect. Thanks for the Trip Report. Don't get too bogged down in the drama. Enjoy the memories.
By the way Coz. Did you and Epi ever make up? That part of the story bummed me and I don't even know you guys. Care to share? By the way, I still have that shot of Kurt stemming in the corner, yarding up a handful of line for a clip in my Garage. Thanks Epi.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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I am also waiting to hear whether or not Coz & Kurt have roped up since....
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Micronut,
I agree. We all are thankful that we love a game that doesn't require more sucking up to the man....
But, it's also why we have to continue to have legitimate conversations about the way we do various things in the name of "progress."
We can all agree that free solo is about as pure and poppin' as it gets, and that we don't want our big walls to be reduced to big grid bolted jungle gyms. El-Capitan is sacred and well worth any debate we choose to have about it. It's the only thing that can delay the onset of the "man" saving us with his infinite wisdom.....
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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I'm a pretty weak climber. 36 years old. Been climbing for 20 years. Basically 5.9 and Alpiny at heart. Nobody ever "taught" me or really mentored me but somehow I came to a set of beliefs about style. Here is my understanding of the "Rules". Where did I get this. Is it still Kosher? Agree to disagree.
1. First ascent trumps all. Don't add to it without full permission. EVER.
2. Best style is ground up, no or few bolts if possible. Bolts placed on lead from stances or hooks is "better" than rap bolting.
3. Rise to the occasion. Don't bring the rock down to your level.
4. Leave no trace is the ultimate goal but not always reality.
These are pretty much in stone as far as I'm concerned though I've never seen them written down at the base of a route. Anything else we need to add to the list?
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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Boys, that's coz in the corner making the clip not the kid.
all this detailed parsing of ethics is over my head. Coz wrote a great story with everything laid out clearly and this was one bigtime badass adventure. It takes my imagination soaring.
EDIT: ah, micro is referring to the other corner picture with Kurt.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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All these ethical debates…
Guys like Scott and Kurt sometimes coming here and waving their arms about traditional style dying and everything.
There are easily 100 people on this forum, active contributors, never mind the lurkers, who each have 30 years climbing experience. That’s more than 3000 years of understanding what trad climbing is and what it does. Like since before Jesus.
I think we get it.
It’s just mental exercise to talk about it.
(some would say wanking…hehe…but I didn’t say that)
Try going on the rockclimbing.com and having these discussions: youch!
Or any other place where the young generation really lives.
Now there’s a crusade…
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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C'mon Kurt: scan 'em up, & post us them pictures!
We're getting long in the tooth here...
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Dogpile on Werner!!!
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