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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 29, 2008 - 06:45am PT
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Skip
Sorry you're getting upset with me. Your upset is keeping you from seeing what's really being said in this thread. You've been ascribing statements and attitudes to me and others that are in your head, not ours.
and I"m not against Christianity either. I don't consider myself less of a Christain than you although your beliefs might judge otherwise.
Just stating some facts. Care to dispute them. What was the pope interaction with the Nazis in the war? Maybe I heard wrong.
a whole lot of Religions have been party to a whole lot of killing and that includes Islam, Christianity, and in this case, even Judaism as well. I'd like to see it stop on all sides. In any case, you know what Jesus said, It's easy to see the speck in everybody else's eye but easy to ignore the log in our own.
Peace
karl
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 08:16am PT
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"This is where we disagree, philo. Israelis don't launch random missiles daily, they just subject the poor Paleo to checkpoints. The have roadblocks for a reason. The paleos didn't bring it on, Hamas, Fatah, Islamic Jihad, and the Pop Front brought this to the people of Palestine, NOT ISRAEL. ISRAEL JUST FIGHTS BACK!
Blue you make it sound like the only struggle the Palestinians have is the inconvenience of check points. As if those check points were the equivalent of a road side sobriety test. Or at worst getting through airport security. This is far from the truth. Traveling around the territories is much harder than traveling behind the iron curtain through communist East Europe was. There are many places deep in the territories that have NO connection to Israel or Israeli security that are an nearly un passable obstacle course for children just trying to get to school, Men just trying to harvest their ancestral crops and women in labor trying to get to the hospital.
If my south Boulder home were in these areas I would have to get through at least three check points Just trying to get to Neptunes for a carabiner or the Southern sun for a beer. I would be obligated to wait hours at each check point. And mind you I live only a mile away. At each of those checkpoints I would be subjected to strip and cavity searches, harassment and humiliation. If I grumble I would be pulled aside for further interrogation. If I complain I will be beaten severely and likely jailed without cause or charges. Dammit I only wanted to get a new ATC and a brew! It would take me the better part of a day to travel that single mile. Now for the return trip....
You see Blue you have been sold a load of lies and misinterpretations. We in the west have been continuously sauteed in a one sided story line. You have been convinced that everything in Israel is perfect and peachy except those damn Palestinians causing all the trouble. You seem to believe if they just shut up and went away everything would be wonderful. But where would they go? This is their land, these are their homes. And I am currently only talking about Palestinian territory not Israel. The atrocity of jewish treatment of Palestinians that I am referring to takes place on Palestinian land not Jewish land. Sure the Israelis don't fire crude rockets on a daily basis. They don't need to they have all the advanced weaponry of the modern world at their disposal. Who needs quassams when you have predator drones. No the Israelis don't fire rockets daily. Instead they use Apache gun ships and tanks. They practice "targeted assassinations" and claim "collateral damage" when dozens of innocents die just to snuff one "bad guy". Then they accuse the "bad guy" of hiding behind civilians in residential areas. But have you ever been to Gaza or seen pictures? The whole place is one giant immensely crowded residential area. There is no room for separate and dedicated military bases. This is urban warfare like Warsaw or Moscow in WW2. No one but the Germans complained about the freedom fighters operating out of civilian areas. There was (and is) NO where else to fight from.
But Blue what I am specifically referring to when I reference Daily violence against Palestinians is the acts of the illegal settlers on stolen Palestinian lands. The death toll and cost of destruction that occurs on a daily basis in these areas makes the damage done by Gaza rocket attacks pale to near insignificance. Which is vastly different than saying I approve of these acts. I may "understand" but I don't condone. I don't condone the violence on either side. But you really owe it to yourself to find out more about the reality of daily life on the ground for Palestinians. But please don't simply take Fattrad's word. If you want I can provide a list of quality documentaries that verifiably present the truth about the situation on the ground.
And by the way I find the use of "Paleos" to be derogatory and offensive.
"Hopefully this time Israel eliminates Hamas once and for all. IJ is already kinda marginal. Maybe Fatah can do better in power with Hamas removed".
Funny thing is Blue Israel created Hamas to be a counter force to Fatah authority. Now there was a brilliant plan eh? It makes you think that tactical genius Donny Rumsfeld thought it up all by himself.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 08:56am PT
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Hawkeye That is absurd on so many levels and in no way a realistic comparison.
First the Gaza rockets if fired from Mexico would, as most in Israel do, fall harmlessly to open ground. They don't have much range and little explosive charge.
Numerous variants of the Qassam rocket have been developed and launched. The Qassam-1, first used in October 2001, had a maximum range of approximately 3-4.5km. The rocket was approximately 60mm in diameter and weighed about 5.5kg. The Qassam-2, used primarily from 2002-2005 was approximately 180cm long, had a maximum range of 8-9.5km and could carry a payload of 5-9kg. Beginning in 2005, newer types of Qassam rockets known as the Qassam-3 were developed, possessing a maximum range of 10-12km and carrying a payload of 10-20kg.
A total of about 450 Qassam rocket attacks were launched against Israel over the two years 2003 and 2004.
These glorified Estes rockets wouldn't make it from one side of LA to the other.
Second we are not occupying, subjugating, brutalizing and terrorizing the Mexicans. What pretext would they have to attack us with rockets? It was an absurd comparison. That's how I like it.
Now go read my Black Canyon or Red Rock stories.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 09:15am PT
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Nice response Skippy. Intelligent, thoughtful and reasoned. All the things we have come to expect from you boy. Did you think it up all on your own or did mommy help you? It's either that or your surrogate yarmulke is a little too tight.
How does it go? Let me think. Oh yeah, BWAHAHAHA.
Oh and little Skipper for your information my wife just returned from three weeks in Palestine and Israel. She was on an international peace delegation. Part of their mission was to protect Palestinians from the violence and aggression of the illegal unsettlers. Do you want to see her slides or is the truth too much for you to handle?
So when are you going to put your limited funds where your prodigious pie hole is?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 09:24am PT
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Whew what's that smell?
Oh never mind it's just Little Skippy frothing at the orifice again.
Skip to the loo your full of poo.
Hey since you guys get all frothed like a latte if anyone dares mention Israel and Nazis in the same sentence how about a new term. A term to counter the racist and derogatory use of the term Islamofacists that they love to bandy about. How about the term Nazraelis to describe the hard corp religious fundamentalists of the Zionist movement? Yeah, Nazraelis, I like it. How about you Skippypoo?
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Dec 29, 2008 - 09:39am PT
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I came up with an idea that actually could go very far in achieving rehabilitation between the peoples of Isreal and Palestine and those of the same who live elsewhere.
It's called PaleSrael Anon. A 12-Step program for those who have been affected.
* Step 1 - We admitted we were powerless over the conflict and that our lives had become unmanageable
* Step 2 - Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity
* Step 3 - Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood God
* Step 4 - Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves
* Step 5 - Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs
* Step 6 - Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character
* Step 7 - Humbly asked God to remove our shortcomings
* Step 8 - Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all
* Step 9 - Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others
* Step 10 - Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it
* Step 11 - Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood God, praying only for knowledge of God's will for us and the power to carry that out
* Step 12 - Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to others suffering, and to practice these principles in all our affairs
Of course - it's not for those who NEED help, but those who WANT it. There are many,many people who are sick and tired of living through that conflict. They want OFF. Like addict parents, the governments have shown themselves incapable of change for SO long that anyone with a clue can see it only ends in death and destruction.
Modeled after the original AA program, it's pretty simple. One shares their experience, strength and hope with another sufferer. Two Israelis can start a meeting with each other and bring other Israelis. The same with two Palestinians. Men's groups. Women's groups. Children's groups! Before long(a generation? Two? LESS???!!!) they will see Israelis and Palestinians able to share ONE meeting and the lives that go with it outside those rooms.
This is actually a serious idea, and I only wish I knew how to better get the word out to people who might be interested to try it. Those with any connection to people over there - won't you help carry the message and pass this post along? It only takes TWO people, willing to share with each other, to light this candle than can bring peace from within.
It CAN work.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 09:43am PT
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Why Skipper? Karl and Dingus and others are making rational, reasonable well presented points. You are just pissing yourself. Grow up boy!
As usual you never answered a question presented to you. So I will post it again.
So Skip please answer the following question; If you were in the same boat as the American Indians or the Occupied Poles or French or God forbid the Palestinians what would you do?
This is a multiple choice question so pick only one answer.
a: Do nothing. Capitulate.
b: Do their bidding. Collaborate.
c: Resist. By any means possible.
What kind of man are you Skipt?
We are all waiting to see what kind of man you are Skip.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 09:46am PT
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Happiegirl you might be surprised to know that compassionate listening circles between Israelis and Palestinians are occurring every day. The are powerful transformative processes that actually stand a chance at promoting peace. If you want more info my wife, who just returned from there could fill you in.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 09:53am PT
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Allright Skip now that was funny. Good for you a sense of humor after all.
But why won't you answer a simple hypothetical question?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 10:05am PT
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Maybe third time is the charm.
So Skip please answer the following question; If you were in the same boat as the American Indians or the Occupied Poles or French or God forbid the Palestinians what would you do?
This is a multiple choice question so pick only one answer.
a: Do nothing. Capitulate.
b: Do their bidding. Collaborate.
c: Resist. By any means possible.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 10:08am PT
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You start.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 10:19am PT
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Should the Tibetans just "learn to get along" with the Chinese occupiers?
Did The Jews of the Warsaw ghetto just "learn to get along" with the Nazis?
Did the Negroes of the American south just "learn to get along" with the slave owners?
Please spend a little time reading about the conditions of occupation and tell me honestly if, you were in their shoes, could just "learn to get along".
Because Skip I don't think you could just "learn to get along". Based on your passionate defense of your beliefs I think it likely that you would be a tremendously effective "freedom fighter". In fact I would go so far as to say you would likely be on the occupiers "most wanted" list.
Or would you just roll over and take it up the a$$?
"Please sir may I have some more".
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Dec 29, 2008 - 10:35am PT
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Philo wrote: "Happiegirl you might be surprised to know that compassionate listening circles between Israelis and Palestinians are occurring every day. The are powerful transformative processes that actually stand a chance at promoting peace. If you want more info my wife, who just returned from there could fill you in."
That is wonderful to know. More power to them.
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UncleDoug
Social climber
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Dec 29, 2008 - 11:00am PT
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"I'm pretty sure American Indians are still around as well as the Tibetans.
Who knows maybe those guys were just funing with me when I lived o the Navajo Nation.
And, wasn't the Dali Lama in the White house a few weeks ago?"
You are making quite an argument against a "Jewish homeland" there skippy.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 11:09am PT
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You aren't much good with answers are you Skip?
Because this; "And which one of these groups fired off rockets into unrelated, innocent civilian homes". isn't much of an answer.
And this; "And which one of these groups fired off rockets into unrelated, innocent civilian homes". only goes to illustrate the fact that the answer to the question for some Palestinians is C. To fight back with any means possible.
And given all that has actually occurred on the ground, this part "into unrelated, innocent civilian homes", is a moot point.
You are dodging and obfuscating Skip. I don't believe you can answer the question because it would expose a fundamental dilemma of beliefs.
You can't answer for the same reason Israel won't declare definitive borders. They can't because there are no definitive borders. All the land is theirs forever. That is what they cling to.
You can't answer for the same motivation that keeps the "Only Democracy in the Middle East" from ratifying a constitution. Isn't sixty years sufficient time for a so called democracy to ratify their constitution? They won't because there would have to be provisions for non Jewish indigenous peoples. The can't because their is no provision for non Jewish indigenous peoples. They have no intent to have any non Jews in Greater Israel. All arabs must go! Initially the predominately radical Zionist founders of the state of Israel thought it would only take 30 years for world opinion to allow them to eradicate the land of Arab inhabitants. It has been taking a bit longer than they hoped. It seems world opinion wasn't always on their side for some reason. What the founders failed to recognize was the passionate connection to the land that the indigenous Palestinians had. My wife's family can definitively trace their Christian Arab lineage and legal claim of possession to land all over Israel and the Occupied Territories. And they can do it for well over 14 centuries of history. It seems the Arabs were really great note takers and preservers of every ones history. They were the learned scribes who kept the books and documented the events. To this day among Palestinians education is the most important priority.
Skip if you read nothing else I could suggest a story about school children's ordeals to go to school under curfew of occupation. It might break your heart. These could be any one's children. They just happen to be palestinian. You might not appreciate the sheer courage of the teachers who risked their lives to teach kids. But surely the kids stories would reach you. Perhaps in particular the part about their art show.
Every one's children deserve to be as free and safe as possible!
Wouldn't you agree Skip?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 11:29am PT
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philo,
"It is you saying that it is OK to send rockets into innocent peoples homes who have nothing to do with this conflict. Not I".
NO Skip it is NOT I who is saying that! I never have go read my posts.
"It is very important to point out that the groups you speak of (Tibetans, African Americans.....) never once thought it OK to kill innocent people completely unrelated to the incidents in question".
Better check your historical facts there Skip.
"Seems to me Ghandi handled his problems pretty successfully".
Yes Skip he did and he was brutalized for it. Like Nelson Mandella also was.
Believe it or not there are several "Gandhi-an" Palestinian peace activists. But the significant difference between India under the British and Palestine under the Israelis is Gandhi enjoyed unfettered travel and access to the whole country to rally support for non violent resistance. Conversely NO Palestinian is allowed unfettered travel and few are allowed to travel the whole of the so called country.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 11:34am PT
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I like how you call it a "fence" Fattrad. Have you seen that "fence" Fattrad?
That "fence" dwarfs the Berlin Wall. Care to see some pictures of that "fence"
And where exactly will that "fence" finally stand Jeff?
Draw a line on a map of Palestine/Israel then sign it and post it please Jeff.
I mean come on all your other geo-political prognostications have been "spot on".
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 29, 2008 - 11:37am PT
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This thread confirms this age of Kali is the iron age of hypocrisy and quarrel.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 11:40am PT
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Sorry Werner.
I have been trying to cut back. Nasty drug a belief system is.
You could avoid the political chaos threads and read my climbing stories about Red Rock and the Black Canyon instead?
Think of it as an instead thread.
Bump the climbing threads to the front page so to speak. Or so to type.
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