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kelly slater
climber
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Oct 26, 2008 - 02:02pm PT
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vote YES on PROP 8!!!!!!!!!
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UncleDoug
Social climber
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Oct 26, 2008 - 02:02pm PT
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"I can, however, judge their actions as long as I am not being a hypocrite about it. So, since I don't engage in homosexual activity, I can certainly judge those that do. If two dudes want to poke each other or whatever, I can definitely judge that to be abhorrent and deviant behavior without being hypocritical."
I can't wait for Jody to pull over a gay couple.......
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dirtbag
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2008 - 02:03pm PT
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"vote YES on PROP 8!!!!!!!!! "
You suck.
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dirtbag
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2008 - 02:12pm PT
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Rokjox wrote this about 4 months ago. I think it is one of the best things I've ever read on this topic.
"Just some notes.
I called several preachers of the Methodist persuasion, which was the religious background I hail from. They immediately started talking about waiting, counseling and MONEY to perform the cere-money. I was beginning to see the money part was quite important to them.
In Idaho at least as I understood it, the states paperwork is the legal document that declares a marriage. We filed that paper. Personally. The Clerk called us up later, and gave us some grief about it, we told her it wasn't any of her business and just deal with it as any other and file it. Eventually she did. (I think she did?)
Several people of various religious persuasions have told me either that I wasn't married legally or that I was not married in the eyes of their God. Too bad, I disagree, but couldn't care less.
I believe I am married and have been for a lot of years. My wife agrees. I anticipate no problem collecting survivor benefits, and we file taxes as married. If I do have any problems, I intend to spend every last dime I can beg borrow or steal in the lawsuit against the State or whoever else tries to deny me this most basic of human rights.
As I said, I intend to find and anticipate no problems. But anybody who tries to legally refuse me anything based in regards to how I chose to get married had better stay out of my way.
After reviewing this internally (my feeling on marriage), I realized that I have no grounds to deny anybody of any color, creed or sex the same respect, who demand it of me.
There was a time when two blacks could not legally become married. There was a time when a white and a black person of any combination of sexes could not become legally married. I am sure that this period of our history is just as foolish and will pass similarly into the dim, sad story of inequality.
Any given church can refuse to perform their ceremonies for any reason. Their ceremonies are their intellectual property. But I feel sure they defy the basic tenets of their religions when they do so.
Most states (world governments) may refuse to extend equal rights to whomever they want, and many have certainly proven that. Ours, at least in theory, may not.
Smile and be happy for the people who think they are happy with the homosexual life. They (I think) give up a lot to pursue it. But that is not my business, or concern. Just be happy for them, as they have won a hard battle to get this recognition of their marriages. A lot of happy tears are being shed over this.
And remember, they (Homosexuals and the Courts) have again shown that ALL our rights are OURS. That a government exists to recognise and protect our rights but does not grant them. We only have the Rights that WE stand up for and DEMAND. In this, what is good for one group is good for us all. We are united in our humanity.
Do not wish for the Constitution to be amended in California. It would be overruled eventually in any case at the Federal level. What we have seen is a voice and a blow for diversity, and diversity is seldom a bad thing. "
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=617976&msg=622938#msg622938
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kelly slater
climber
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Oct 26, 2008 - 02:24pm PT
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It is disappointing to see moral fibers torn to shreds over the last 20 years. (In all aspects of life) Media is the main culprit (well the overabundance of weak minds that are bred and fed today by the media)
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Oct 26, 2008 - 02:27pm PT
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dirtbag
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2008 - 02:30pm PT
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"It is disappointing to see moral fibers torn to shreds over the last 20 years. (In all aspects of life) Media is the main culprit (well the overabundance of weak minds that are bred and fed today by the media) "
Kelly, there is nothing immoral about homosexuality.
It is the fear and hate of people like you of people who are different from you that is the problem.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Oct 26, 2008 - 02:32pm PT
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This nation is losing it's way. I too blame the media and the weak-souls that think they're making things better in the name of diversity and tolerance.
It's not hateful to shun immorality. It takes strength to fight against this when all around you claim you're 'intolerant'.
Saddening really. We're dying as a nation.
"Kelly, there is nothing immoral about homosexuality. "
How do you define morality, DB, where is the source for moral guidance?
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Oct 26, 2008 - 02:36pm PT
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kelly slater
climber
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Oct 26, 2008 - 02:38pm PT
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thanks for pointing out my fear and hate. You seem to know so much when yet you know so little. It's funny how quick you are to label someone. I feel you are the one that obviously has this fear and hate. The fear of other peoples opinions and the hate that you can't take other peoples opinions into consideration. Please do not say I hate and fear individuals.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 26, 2008 - 02:39pm PT
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"This nation is losing it's way. I too blame the media and the weak-souls that think they're making things better in the name of diversity and tolerance. "
People have been saying this for generations, about women voting, about interracial marriage, about marriages not arranged by the parents, about legal divorce, and even freeing the slaves.
Humbug. Wanna be moral? The only morality that counts is what you do in your own life, preferably as your own sacrifice. Mandating morality for others is nothing but prejudice.
Peace
karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 26, 2008 - 02:41pm PT
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Here's something a wrote about gay marriage a few years back
"Gay Marriage promotes American Values
Most of us like to assume that we would have had the moral clarity to oppose slavery when it was still legal. Practically everyone assumes that, prior to 1920, they would have championed a woman’s right to vote. Our noble sense of ourselves tells us that, if we were alive when the country debated whether interracial couples should be allowed to marry, we would have been among those whose vision favored equality over prejudice.
It’s far more difficult however, to look at the present day and imagine what parts of our culture will be considered backward and prejudiced 50 years from now, or 200 years from now. In the year 2090, will society still consider beating another person unconscious to be a valiant sport? Nobody knows.
The issue of gay marriage is a perfect example of a topic that we may someday look back upon in hindsight with greater clarity. At the moment, it’s a perfect political wedge issue. Few common folks in America’s heartland have openly gay friends. It’s easy to deny the gay community rights that all human beings might claim as inalienable. The thought of a man kissing another man makes us uncomfortable, like watching somebody eat a beetle in China. It goes against our own polarity.
It’s easy to ignore the struggle for civil rights of a group we don’t belong to. Our blind loathing of other races, religions, cultures and lifestyles evaporates in the light of familiarity and experience. Observing the long-term relationships of several lesbian couples has taught me that their bonds are meaningful, real and noble. I’m lucky to have friends like them. I have no business denying them the rights, benefits and responsibilities that are available to me. It would be wrong of me not to support them now, as their cause is debated.
Even though there is supposed to be a barrier between church and state, conservatives are claiming that the threat posed by gay marriage is a threat to the “sanctity” of marriage. It is really just a threat to our cultural norms. After all, few of us champion returning to the marriage culture of the Bible, which was between one man, and well, several women. Moses, David, Jacob and many of the other patriarchs of our faith had several wives. The same could be said of Abraham, father of many nations, except that his first-born was with Hagar, his wife’s slave, whom he didn’t marry. There is far more support in the Bible for slavery than there is condemnation of homosexuality. Going back in time isn’t the answer.
The idea of “protecting” marriage seems misguided as well. Everybody who would consider changing sexual preferences if gay marriage was legal raise your hand! Allowing our gay brothers and sisters into the fold might better protect marriage. If gay promiscuity presents a public health problem, then marriage is a positive solution. Without commitment-fearing males in the equation, lesbian marriages might improve on the 50% divorce rate that we heterosexuals have racked up. Another idea would be encouraging the Catholic Church to allow priests to be married, just like the disciples of Jesus were.
Let those without sin cast the first stone. Perhaps the most righteous course would be to judge not…live and let live. We won’t know until after death if support of gay marriage offends God, or if supporting violence and war is the real sin. Religious folks like me would do well to remember the prejudice and persecution that their own faiths suffered during their history.
Gay Marriage costs heterosexual marriage nothing, and promotes the American values of equality, diversity and tolerance. Let the religions decide which of their members can get married; and let the state provide equal rights and protections under the law for everyone. Let’s support the inevitable now, so we don’t look back in shame 30 years from now."
Peace
Karl
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Oct 26, 2008 - 02:41pm PT
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Wade, all of the major religions hold certain similar core moral values. I don't think any religion would condone homosexuality as something to be promoted and accepted as moral behavior.
That said, it shouldn't be persecuted either.
I'm all in favor of civil unions with full rights BTW.
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dirtbag
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2008 - 02:43pm PT
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"You seem to know so much when yet you know so little. It's funny how quick you are to label someone."
Well, that is what you have revealed. You don't like gay people, and that's what it all boils down to.
"The fear of other peoples opinions and the hate that you can't take other peoples opinions into consideration. "
Ha. I'm just calling it as I see it. I've read probably just about all the arguments for 8, and in the end, it's about discrimination and a dislike of people who are different.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Oct 26, 2008 - 02:46pm PT
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Odd,Kelly, when I read your post I thought you were against the decadence that has brought about prop 8. Dirt appears to think you meant the opposite of what I thought. Maybe he was right. I would ask if youre for freedom or oppression but that might sound biased.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 26, 2008 - 02:50pm PT
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Bluering
"I'm all in favor of civil unions with full rights BTW."
Great, I'm onboard if we get government out of the marriage business then, just do civil contracts and let religion have marriage.
Otherwise it's a true church/state breach no?
PEace
Karl
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kelly slater
climber
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Oct 26, 2008 - 02:51pm PT
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It's not what I revealed, it's what you labeled me as. It is my opinion. When you assume the intent of other people and are wrong about their feelings, that is when you do bring hate and fear among others because when you tell people how they are when you have no idea. Just because a belief is put in place does not mean there is hate just a disagreement in what is right for each individual.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Oct 26, 2008 - 02:52pm PT
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"Mandating morality for others is nothing but prejudice."
You're wrong. Morality is a strict thing that isn't to be watered down and 'interpreted'. It is a line you do not cross.
Once you start allowing people to dictate themselves what is moral or not, we're really screwed and dead as a society.
Is having sex with children wrong? Consenting animals who hump your leg are clearly consenting to sex, right? Maybe that should be acceptable, after all, it's consensual. It doesn't hurt anybody. In fact both are receiving love and pleasure from it...right?
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Oct 26, 2008 - 03:03pm PT
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What, IS your opinion, Kelly?
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kelly slater
climber
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Oct 26, 2008 - 03:09pm PT
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homosexuality is an abnormal behavior in the natural world. Can two men conceive after sexual relations? no. Can two women conceive after sexual relations? no. (I'd like to be there to see this one if they were both hot). Can a man and a woman conceive if they have sexual relations? YES. I guess if you guys want equality then we need to install two new bathrooms. Those for lesbians and those for gay guys. I do not want to be at the urinal having some guy trying to check out my package. I know you will come back with the hate and fear thing, and if so then men should be able to use the womens bathroom right or are you full of hate and fear that some straight man would try to get a sneak peak at something naughty in the Macy's bathroom?
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