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WBraun
climber
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What exactly do you think we're afraid of...?
Being cheated ..... as you have been many times before.
death happens as the conclusion to living. Why isn't that simply enough?
Yes, you can be happy there if you want, dead! Unfortunately you will be revived and made to learn the lesson. In the prison house the warden is the master, but does he own your soul?
And yes I was conscious of the fact that this woman could be lying ..... but that isn't the central point.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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You'd have to elaborate on this one, I'm not getting it...
"Being cheated ..... as you have been many times before."
Given you believe the former, can you answer the latter:
"The presence of consciousness does not depend on the brain."
"How about prions, viruses, bacteria? Do they have souls? Do they get to go to heaven or have an afterlife? How about Worms and Crickets? Where along the continuum from some not-so-random assembly of Proteins to Homo Sapiens does a soul begin?"
And this one (again, I'm curious more than anything as I do have nothing but respect for you and your choices - I simply don't share your beliefs):
What exactly are you and the others afraid of? That you'll be gone? That that's it? And (just curious) what makes anything you read in an Eastern text any more valid than the Koran, the Bible, or one of Ron L. Hubbard's tomes? Just that you like it or it finds some affinity for you?
[5pm: Werner - have to dash and take the girls to dinner...]
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WBraun
climber
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Healyje
It’s ok
Remember I have no qualms with you nor Matt, I’m not here to try to change you. This is a discussion on two different sides of a point of view on life. You have yours and I give mine. You and Matt are intelligent and hold intelligent questions.
The truth will hold the answers as it is universal and transcends all sectarian knowledge. May we see what the truth holds for us in the future about this nice discussion.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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If you consider the possibility that the soul is awareness itself (not cognition but essential conciousness) then it's no surprise that we're not aware OF the soul since the soul is the eternal subject from which awareness arises and not the object of awareness and thinking.
Still, what separates traditional organized "religion" from spirituality is the opportunity to experience truth for yourself rather than take tradition's word for things. (and after all, even if traditon's word is true, our limited understanding is likely to miscontrue the teachings anyway)
So you can experience the pure awareness behind and beyond the mind by quieting the habit of discursive and associative thinking and learning to abide in your own being, which will reveal itself to be peaceful, fulfilled and unchanging.
And if you find yourself like that, it won't matter if you call it a "soul" or apply Buddhist philosophy to it (since Buddhism resists the concept of soul) because reality is as it is. Our concepts of reality will always be pale and distant graspings at what is far beyond the limited range of understanding that is available to us via the mind and language. Yet the soul's awareness is capable of wordlessly grasping and intuiting a greater but ineffable truth.
Thus the saying, "those who know, cannot say, and those who say, cannot know."
But we talk smack anyway. This is our party and we'll cry if we want to
Peace
karl
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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holy cripes werner, i only wish you were posting a link to that site out of sarcasm! it's not as if they have an agenda of their own over at world net dailey, now is it...? (check out the 'commentary' on their site)
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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You don't really expect us to take anything a notorious christian rag like that has to say on the subject or the testimony of one of their dedicated medical flaks...? The whole lot of that crew are muckrakers and flaks with a christian/right-to-life agenda (that as we now know includes radical legislative and administrative activism). Hell, they make Fox News look impartial by comparison...
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WBraun
climber
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Ok guys I see you came out off the wood works .... cool. Damn you guys are pretty strong arm wrestlers. No match for wimpy me.
But I hold my ground on my past posts and that she was not vegitative. So Sorry .......
Still all is cool, you guys too.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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soul or no soul, bacteria or no bacteria, after-life or frat-party, i have another big problem with everyone who is so worked up over this terri person and her unfortunate end.
if you believe in your god so completely, did not your god make all life such that it lives and then it dies? so then, quickly glance at that thread of mr. minerals for some perspective on the brief period of recent history in which we humans have developed the medical technology to sustain such a life. is that what your god intended?
if all forms of life have souls, and grass feels pain when the lawn gets mowed, then why are humans so worthy of this extra effort to perpetually sustain life in any fraction of its natural state?
as for the life thhat terri was going to be "living" with her feeding tube in place, is it in any way natural? or shoudn't some of god's other creatures be snacking on those of us that are unable to keep up w/ the herd?
and don't start w/ any "because we can" stuff, we can clone ourselves too, if we choose to, but you won't say THAT is god's intention.
it looks to me, albeit from the outside looking in, that many honest and straightforward christians are so entirely jumping on terri's bandwagon, when the painful and obvious truth is that the real gripe here is not her life or her death or her family or her last wishes, but whether or not we as a nation are going to continue to offer safe and legal abortions to women who choose that option (or are forced to choose that option, etc. etc. etc.).
what is so spiritual or holy about abusing this kind of situatuion in order to generate media coverage for the right to life types? and how is it that good people (like you?) are so imune to the idea that this is not about what it seems like it's about?
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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hey werner, i wasn't in the woodwork, i was up in your backyard (nice yard too).
in regards to those claims of that article, no one in this discussion has said she was comatose (the main thrust of that article you posted a link to) and for all the media coverage i saw or read (plenty) i never once heard that term used, so it quite frankly strikes me as a fabrication. the article itself even makes the point that public opinion after the fact is super important for their cause.
as for the claims of "she reacts" and all of that, people will believe what they want to believe, but to one so wise as yourself, is it not curious that no one who was not an activist is making those claims? do you really think all the other doctors in florida are such cold sons of bitches that they wanted to see her snuffed? (maybe they all get off on such horrible injustices, and that's why they went into medicine in the 1st place).
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WBraun
climber
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No Matt, to me it’s about her husband who’s really behind it. He just wants her dead. He got that wish. But something terrible is going to happen to him down the line. I just know it. I’m not worried about Christian or Buddhist or Vedas or what have you. I know the truth about this situation, don’t worry I’m secure about what I see.
As far as your many questions you will have to find those answers for yourself. Me telling you will not do much. Real experience is worth thousands more.
Hey it’s snowing now .... I’m loosing my signal its snowing so hard now. I’m on a wireless to about 100 yards.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Werner,
Again, I have no problem with anyone's beliefs in matters relative to spirituality, religion, and souls - but PVS is determination of a lack of neurological responses within the brain.
With regards to the PVS diagnosis:
"The diagnosis of the permanent vegetative state is primarily clinical, with repeated neurological examination necessary over a period of time to establish absence of cognitive functions and irreversibility. Laboratory studies may be useful and confirmatory in some cases. For example, EEGs will show severe background slowing. When monitored over a few years, CT scans and MRIs will show progressive cerebral cortical atrophy. While the degree of cerebral cortical atrophy does not necessarily correlate with the complete loss of cerebral cortical functions, it does, however, help to confirm that the underlying process, given the severity of destruction seen on these neuroimaging studies, is irreversible, thus establishing to a high degree of certainty that the condition is permanent. Clinical studies evaluating the usefulness of PET (positron emission tomography) have confirmed the absence of consciousness in these patients by conclusively demonstrating levels of oxygen and glucose metabolism in the cerebral cortex consistent with deep levels of coma, and other forms of deep unconsciousness."
With regard to Terri's appearance in videos:
"To the families and loved ones, and to inexperienced health care professionals, PVS patients often look fairly “normal.” Their eyes are open and moving about during the periods of wakefulness that alternate with periods of sleep; there may be spontaneous movements of the arms and legs, and at times these patients appear to smile, grimace, laugh, utter guttural sounds, groan and moan, and manifest other facial expressions and sounds that appear to reflect cognitive functions and emotions, especially in the eyes of the family."
The appearances are deceiving and particularly cruel to loved ones in raising false hopes. However, all of the courts involved keep returning to the medical affidavits that have repeatedly state she was in a PVS which is entirely consistent with [repeated] EEGs and CT scans.
In this case to simply state "[I believe] that she was not vegitative" is like saying "I believe 2 + 2 = 5"; all the neurological and biochemical indicators show she is, certainly by any accepted medical definition of the term. This is the same human tendency that keeps Urban Myths, Mugabe's AIDs pronouncements, "didn't go to the moon" theories, tabloids, ufos, and religions going strong...
[Edit: On some reflection, I think I'll let this rest, and as you keep saying Werner, truth is universal and exists on it's own (certainly independent of ST inspite of what we might all think...). Whether still here in some form or gone forever, peace be with her.]
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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No Matt, to me it’s about her husband who’s really behind it. He just wants her dead. He got that wish. But something terrible is going to happen to him down the line. I just know it. I’m not worried about Christian or Buddhist or Vedas or what have you. I know the truth about this situation, don’t worry I’m secure about what I see.
and yet to support your opinion, you can only quote a hack job of a fundamentalist website. what you "know" is what you have read, what you have heard, what you have gleaned and inferred from these, and what you believe to be the case.
i am suprised that you pay no attention to one very clear reality- that all the things that push you believe what you do, are geared to get you to believe what you do. nothing that leads you to your position is from an impartial source, or one w/out an interest in skewing public opinion (yours, for example) toward support for this "culture of life" (don't even get me started on that! what a crock of shit!)
[edit]i guess they don't filter me![/edit]
we could talk some about the organizational potential of the evangelical christian movement and their influence upon the well coordinated right wing media. as a student i was often encouraged to be a critical thinker. it sounds to me like you could use a small dose of that medicine.
honestly werner, you are kinda creeping me out with this idea that you somehow "know" all about this case and everyone in it. wouldn't you agree that this guy, at least at some point in the past, was in love with his wife, and she was his wife? so maybe it should just be their business, and maybe that in itself should be enough for everyone else to just go home. as for you and i, at best we are several thousand miles away and trying our best to determine our own opinions with the limited resources and information that are available to us all. when you openly blame this unfortunate guy for "want(ing) her dead", it sounds a bit like you, projecting you own values and opinions into someone else's supper.
of course i would never wish it on anyone, but to really know this man's heart (this man that you so thouroughly and forcefully condemn), perhaps one would have to be the husband of a woman on a feeding tube who has been repeatedly diagnosed as in a PVS, and then have a multi-year court battle against your inlaws fought out in the press and everywhere else.
i humbly suggest that neither you, nor i, nor any of the fevered protesters in florida or anywhere else, know the 1st thing about it.
because you have read it on the internet doesn't make it true.
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clustiere
Trad climber
running springs, ca
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Rowcc ill be there!
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WBraun
climber
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Matt
don’t worry I’m secure about what I see
It’s ment in reference to her, nothing to do with all that political stuff you are getting at. Take it easy buddy, don’t get yourself all worked up. I would have loved to have you guys and myself go visit her while she was alive.
Then we would see the truth in action …
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
Ca
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In attempting to appear wise the hollow man shows his emptiness.
Meanwhile our lack of faith in God, the soul, or Werner's special knowlegde allows us to continue in our effort to gain wisdom. Is wisdom the only thing we fill ourselves with? Do we fill our minds or our souls? Do we care? Not bloody likely, which is probably why we have no faith to begin with.
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WBraun
climber
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Hey Matt
lol, It snowed here in the valley last night. But, since I'm telling it on the internet it must be untrue.
What should I believe?
I must go out back and eat some dirt and granite ...... then I will know it's taste ........
And, ShorTimer, what special knowledge? Everything I see everyone else can see too.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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werner-
it doesn't snow out in florida, and we would have had to read about last night's weather out there.
=)
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James
Gym climber
City by the Bay
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Melissa-
the game you mentioned above is DANCE DANCE REVOLUTION and you may want to show it the proper respect and capitalize that name.
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