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mrtropy
Trad climber
Nor Cal
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Feb 24, 2010 - 12:12am PT
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I have no problem with # 7
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2010 - 12:14am PT
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MH, I'm glad you refer to them as crackpots. It's their disciples that are troubling. The ones carrying the philosophy onward.
EDIT:
I have no problem with # 7
Excellent, then you can slowly accept the rest. Welcome aboard!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Feb 24, 2010 - 12:21am PT
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Crackpots - like their fellow travellers on the right. Fanatic ideologues, largely disconnected with the real world. The right-wingers just have a better PR machine. I guess when you own the press, that follows.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2010 - 12:29am PT
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I'd like to see someone (like Karl probably) justify each of the points laid out, in a reasonable fashion. Sure, you can disagree with one or two, but the whole agenda?
It's crazy, man....
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Feb 24, 2010 - 12:32am PT
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appeals to strawmen arguments (i.e. dead guys that wrote what they wrote) does not mean that either post modern or post structuralist or conservative or neo conservative thought is correct.
In fact, both are rhetorically impotent except to the literary blind who appeal to them to drive their agenda.
Appealling to facts, or studies, or current analyses, well that's a much harder thing to do if it really means so much to one.
Personally this kind or most any kind of broad over generalizing should be done good and drunk, and have nothing to do with real life circumstances where people have to survive in a nation state.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Feb 24, 2010 - 12:32am PT
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Hmm, looking at bluering's talking points list, there's all too many climbers who could be said to have committed #2, #4, #6, #7 and perhaps #11. No wonder this place is infested with communist-anarcho-liberal-syndicalist-fascist-conservative-corporatist pigs.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2010 - 12:35am PT
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Munge, I agree somewhat. And yes, I am under ze influence. But somtimes a commie IS a commie and not some silly red herring....
MH, I just call 'em pinko's.....
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Feb 24, 2010 - 12:39am PT
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from Monty Python and the Holy Grail
Scene 3
[clop clop]
ARTHUR: Old woman!
DENNIS: Man!
ARTHUR: Old Man, sorry. What knight lives in that castle over there?
DENNIS: I'm thirty seven.
ARTHUR: What?
DENNIS: I'm thirty seven -- I'm not old!
ARTHUR: Well, I can't just call you `Man'.
DENNIS: Well, you could say `Dennis'.
ARTHUR: Well, I didn't know you were called `Dennis.'
DENNIS: Well, you didn't bother to find out, did you?
ARTHUR: I did say sorry about the `old woman,' but from the behind you looked--
DENNIS: What I object to is you automatically treat me like an inferior!
ARTHUR: Well, I AM king...
DENNIS: Oh king, eh, very nice. An' how'd you get that, eh? By exploitin' the workers -- by 'angin' on to outdated imperialist dogma which perpetuates the economic an' social differences in our society! If there's ever going to be any progress--
WOMAN: Dennis, there's some lovely filth down here. Oh -- how d'you do?
ARTHUR: How do you do, good lady. I am Arthur, King of the Britons. Who's castle is that?
WOMAN: King of the who?
ARTHUR: The Britons.
WOMAN: Who are the Britons?
ARTHUR: Well, we all are. we're all Britons and I am your king.
WOMAN: I didn't know we had a king. I thought we were an autonomous collective.
DENNIS: You're fooling yourself. We're living in a dictatorship. A self-perpetuating autocracy in which the working classes--
WOMAN: Oh there you go, bringing class into it again.
DENNIS: That's what it's all about if only people would--
ARTHUR: Please, please good people. I am in haste. Who lives in that castle?
WOMAN: No one live there.
ARTHUR: Then who is your lord?
WOMAN: We don't have a lord.
ARTHUR: What?
DENNIS: I told you. We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week.
ARTHUR: Yes.
DENNIS: But all the decision of that officer have to be ratified at a special biweekly meeting.
ARTHUR: Yes, I see.
DENNIS: By a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs,--
ARTHUR: Be quiet!
DENNIS: --but by a two-thirds majority in the case of more--
ARTHUR: Be quiet! I order you to be quiet!
WOMAN: Order, eh -- who does he think he is?
ARTHUR: I am your king!
WOMAN: Well, I didn't vote for you.
ARTHUR: You don't vote for kings.
WOMAN: Well, 'ow did you become king then?
ARTHUR: The Lady of the Lake,
[angels sing]
her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite, held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water signifying by Divine Providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur.
[singing stops]
That is why I am your king!
DENNIS: Listen -- strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
ARTHUR: Be quiet!
DENNIS: Well you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!
ARTHUR: Shut up!
DENNIS: I mean, if I went around sayin' I was an empereror just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me they'd put me away!
ARTHUR: Shut up! Will you shut up!
DENNIS: Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system.
ARTHUR: Shut up!
DENNIS: Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! HELP! HELP! I'm being repressed!
ARTHUR: Bloody peasant!
DENNIS: Oh, what a give away. Did you here that, did you here that, eh? That's what I'm on about -- did you see him repressing me, you saw it didn't you?
(Courtesy of Ed H, who helpfully posted it a while ago. Of as the Lollards so cheerfully put it during the Peasant's Revolt of 1381, "When Adam delved, and Eve span, who was then, the gentleman?")
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Mason
Trad climber
Yay Area
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Feb 24, 2010 - 12:51am PT
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I haven't read even half the posts on this thread, let alone half the most recent ones but I noticed the title and the OP's author so I just had to drop in.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism
That doesn't actually sound so bad. What's funnier is that's exactly where we're heading right this very second!
The problem with Communism is not the philosophy of it, rather the people who run it. The same goes for Capitalism. The system is good, the people that run it are bad.
Greed, arrogance, greed, envy, greed and power all lead to corruption and perversion of systems designed to create welfare for humanity.
To me that seems like a fundamental truth. Very simple. I don't know how you all feel about that, though.
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mrtropy
Trad climber
Nor Cal
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Feb 24, 2010 - 12:57am PT
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"Excellent, then you can slowly accept the rest. Welcome aboard! "
Thanks for telling me what I can do, rather than what I may do, Bluering, time to put down the bottle and go to bed. Ok big fella'. If you ever grow up and have a family I am sure you will be embarrassed by posts here. Spare your children and stop now.
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dktem
Trad climber
Temecula
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Feb 24, 2010 - 10:08am PT
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but what should the gov't do? that's a question... not a rhetorical one...
Ed,
The govt. did need to intervene and prop up the system. It sucks, but it had to be done. I don't know the whole story, but I have some experience with financial markets. I'm sure that if the govt. didn't do what it did, everybody would be hurting bad right now, especially the poor.
What they should have done also, is allowed individuals to fail. Many CEOs and traders should have been financially ruined at the least. And many people should be in jail or on their way there. By now, the news should be reporting an indictment on almost a daily basis. From wall street kingpins to local mortgage brokers, thousands of people should have gone to jail for the excesses of the past years.
But almost none of this happened. They're still getting their paychecks (bigger than ever!) and only a few extreme cases have been prosecuted (e.g. Stanford). The message the govt. is sending now, is this: "go ahead and try to get uber-rich again, you've got nothing to lose..."
And we also need the regulation I mentioned previously.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Feb 24, 2010 - 10:12am PT
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The problem with Communism is not the philosophy of it, rather the people who run it.
The real problem is that every bunch of murderous thugs to come along think THEY are the right people to run it.
Plato knew his utopia run by philosopher kings was a fantasy.
There have been legion since then without the wisdom to realize that.
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Feb 24, 2010 - 10:22am PT
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this thread is a troll,
or bluering showed
up to another gun
fight armed only
with a wiffle ball bat.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Last clip of Lichen Lunch
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Feb 24, 2010 - 10:26am PT
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Wisdom & temperance are hard to come by, in humans.
There are ALWAYS predators about.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Feb 24, 2010 - 10:32am PT
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Feb 24, 2010 - 10:37am PT
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Fear not Bluering acute paranoia is often treatable- good luck!
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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Feb 24, 2010 - 10:44am PT
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Having spent years learning to annihilate commies I then
turned to just studying them and you know what? Given the
opportunity with very few exceptions they most willingly
come over to the dark side. The allure of more than three
hots and a cot is too much; most people are upwardly mobile
at heart.
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Jingy
Social climber
Nowhere
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Feb 24, 2010 - 10:51am PT
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Dr. F. - and blue is for all of this!!!
or at least he patrioticly stands behind those "partriots" that have taken these steps....
I realized after I went on my rant that this was blues thinking from '08.. but you know what....?
I don't think any of it has changed.....
it a shame
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dktem
Trad climber
Temecula
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Feb 24, 2010 - 11:30am PT
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Blue, you were born in the wrong age.
You would have had more folks agree with you back in the early 1950s.
Plus there would have been more opportunities for FAs.
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dirtbag
climber
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Feb 24, 2010 - 12:36pm PT
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Good lord, folks are seriously worried Commies?
Shows how nutty the modern day John Birchers/Tea Party folks really are.
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