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Blight
Social climber
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This is a fine example of the near-fanatical dedication of atheists to extreme ignorance, as I've described in previous posts.
When reading Norton's posts I wonder, how many simple errors and vast sweeping assumptions can one man cram into his posts?
"people who believed in their heart of hearts that the earth was flat"
"cro-magnum"
"had never been more than 25 miles from their place of birth"
"when you die, it is as final as the death of your pet dog"
Of course, any of these mistakes could have been avoided with only the briefest of investigations - and yet, curiously, Norton has done no such thing.
The desperation to believe, it is clear, is on Norton's side. So desperate is he to believe that he spouts half-formed, misunderstood ideas and simple factual errors. So desperate to believe that he needs to start forum threads to push, panting and sweating, his agenda - but not even his own ideas, just a straightforward, zombie-like repeating of someone else's ideas.
Don't hate Norton, folks. He doesn't understand his own material - all he wants more than anything else is something - anything - that will show that he is right and the hated religious people are wrong. And he's driven to such a state of panic that he'll accept absolutely anything no matter how flawed or misunderstood as proof.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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You're pretty desperate, aren't you, blight?
The eloquent Norton and Werner, are both sides of the same coin, why is that so hard to grasp?
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Well Werner, if power comes from believing the CRAP you believe, then I do not want any.
I'd be ashamed to fall for such drivel as you have embraced.
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Blight
Social climber
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"You're pretty desperate, aren't you, blight? "
That's a good example of another key point I made earlier and of the same problem Norton has: namely that atheism and atheists are typically devoid of original thought when it comes to these issues.
Atheism, as anyone can see, is a knee-jerk reaction: "a-theism", "without god" and not an authentic idea in its own right - it's literally just the opposite of theism and entirely dependent on theism to reaosn through the key ideas which it then "opposes".
Jaybro demonstrates how that lack of substance continues into most areas of atheists' "thinking" - instead of tackling any of the points I made with reasoned arguments, he just says the opposite of what I did: thus "norton is desperate" becomes "no, you are desperate". There is no rationale or thought behind it at all.
As has been said many times, atheism is chiefly a late christian heresy, notable only for its intellectual crudity.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Well let's see Blight (good choice of name, as that is what religion is for humanity) the operating idea for religion is some thing like this:
" Hmmm I need something over me, some higher power to exist, that explains stuff I can't understand. No problem, I'll make one up."
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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You might want to actually pay some attention to what people are saying to you, Blight. instead of pimping your own agenda at any cost. the world doesn't hate you, you just have to listen sometimes instead of spray. I'll buy you a club soda..
are you calling me an atheist? How presumtive. But you must know... being omniscient and all.
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Blight
Social climber
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"are you calling me an atheist? How presumtive. But you must know... being omniscient and all. "
No, I'm showing how you display classic atheistic thinking. Beside that how you choose to describe yourself is trivial and not as interesting as you clearly think other people should find it!
Again though we see the pattern - as I said earlier, it's very important for anti-religious crusaders to demonise those they hate. The reason for this is simple: while religion at large has occasionally been responsible for terrible atrocities in its distant past, the average christian or muslim, at whom the venom of the anti-religion bigot is directed, has seldom committed any crime beyond the exceedingly petty.
So crimes are concocted and the religious accused of them - they are variously held responsible for "attempting to drag civilisation into the dark ages" or "brainwashing children" and so on and so on.
The overspill is what we see here: notice that both Jaybro and Dirtineye rush to attribute wholly false ideas to me. Of course I didn't say I was omniscient, nor did I comment on the underlying foundations of theology. Yet in their haste to make sure I'm guilty of some kind of fallacy, anything at all, and not finding anything they can effectively attack in what i did write, they are reduced to nothing more than lying through their teeth.
Still, that's the way it is with anti-religious thinking!
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Atheism, as anyone can see, is a knee-jerk reaction: "a-theism", "without god" and not an authentic idea in its own right - it's literally just the opposite of theism and entirely dependent on theism to reaosn through the key ideas which it then "opposes".
What a dopey statement. I think Norton said it all quite eloquently.
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Blight
Social climber
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"What a dopey statement. I think Norton said it all quite eloquently."
Exactly: you show no reasoning, there's no thought or rationale behind your assertion, just the general catch-all that what someone else told you is entirely correct.
It's the key failing of anti-relgious zealots: the total lack of analysis or consideration that dogs their actions.
Religious people of course attend seminars, study theology and form informal discussion groups an a weekly basis, and are thus quite well-armed with their own ideas, argued and reasoned out with their peers. It's so sad to see that those who hate them so much are by and large dependent, as we see here, on being told what to think.
What a way to live your life.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Blight, the least interesting thing about evolution is whether it is true or not. It is an avocation of mine (having studied and worked as a geologist) to keep up with all of the amazing new findings with respect to evolutionary biology and related fields. I believe that it is quite interesting to learn exactly how we evolved from our common ancestor with the other apes and, for that matter, how life came about from non-life. Frankly, debating whether evolution is true or not is like debating whether the earth really goes around the sun or not.
With respect to research, as a scientist, I have to read tons of stuff just to keep up. Let's see, what do you guys read? The bible and a bunch of crap that people with similar views as yours have written ABOUT the bible. That's not research.
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WBraun
climber
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Life comes from life
not "how life came about from non-life"
And we never evolved from ape to man.
Your research is defective, you have missed the most important link.
The car will not start or move with out the driver ......
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jstan
climber
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Over the last eight years my attitude towards religion has changed, markedly I must admit. Before then when I hit a preacher on the radio I would stick around because some were good speakers and sometimes there would be decent music. Now when I hit one I think only it is time to do away with tax advantages for corporations that do not believe in separation of church and state and have the purpose of forcing me to know only what they know. And yes they are corporations intent on gaining ever more money and power. Sometimes led by charlatans who are doing all the things they decry – and more.
We can sit and theorize about what the bible is maybe even talk about what King James had in mind for the bible he had written. But really the important thing is what is happening here and now. On both sides of this divide there are good people who want to let others live to their own light.
What really comes across?
Religion has no connection whatsoever with whether a person is “good” or “bad”, “right” or “wrong”.
Religion is a choice. A choice that has yet to acquire the honesty it takes to accord others the same freedom.
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Blight
Social climber
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Again you just prove my point.
I've never said that I'm a creationist, in fact I'm not. Yet you rush headlong to claim I am and to attribute all sorts of nonsense habits to me in order to legitimise your dislike.
As WBraun's also pointed out there's still that striking lack of original thought in your ranting -
"how life came about from non-life"
Well then you'll have some observations of that happening, won't you? Some carefully thought out analysis with experimental evidence of the spontaneous appearance of living matter.
Right?
Because obviously if you don't then you're reduced - again - to parrotting what you've been told to believe.
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Blight
Social climber
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"Religion is a choice. A choice that has yet to acquire the honesty it takes to accord others the same freedom."
Tell me Jstan, was this thread started by a religious person, prehaps quoting religious texts or maybe a famous preacher in an effort to discredit the claims of atheists?
Or was it started by an atheist, quoting an atheist in an effort to discredit the claims of some religious people?
So then, who does this thread show to be intolerant and unwilling to live and let live?
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jstan
climber
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Blight:
"was this thread started by a religious person?"
You cannot start a discussion by requiring others to answer an unanswerable question. We used to try and drown people to discover whether they were "one with god" or were possessed.
I stated my opinion that much of what we take these days to be religion lacks - honesty.
Without honesty human relationships like religion surely is, are impossible.
Since no one here is stupid, one has to conclude much of the religion we see is not primarily interested in human relationships.
There is some other agenda.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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"it's very important for anti-religious crusaders to demonise those they hate"
Naah, we hate the sin - but love the sinner. So to speak.
How convenient it would be if we all got in the "anti-religion" box for you. Not likely. Being critical of religion isn't anti-religion. Even the blight agrees that religion, and believers, have done evil and are doing evil. (Free will and all that.) Even the most strident atheist, agnostic, or pagan probably agrees that religion and believers have done some good, and that we can often learn something from what the religions say about how we should live together, however absurd and controlling their dogmas and beliefs.
It's usually more effective, and more entertaining, to simply make fun of the absurdities of all faiths, and to refute the 'arguments' on which they are supposedly based, which are ultimately founded on belief. You either believe, usually because that's what you were told when young, or you don't.
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Blight
Social climber
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"I stated my opinion that much of what we take these days to be religion lacks - honesty. "
And is it honest to refuse to answer a direct question, Jstan?
You claimed that religion is intolerant. But who started this thread to abuse the beliefs of others?
Please be honest.
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