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Hammer
Social climber
Custer, SD
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Aug 14, 2007 - 08:34pm PT
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So wiclimber, your common sense tells you the protetion (sic) on the Eye is adequate?
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Hammer
Social climber
Custer, SD
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Aug 16, 2007 - 07:07am PT
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OK, no one wants to talk about the tough issues.
Don said, on this thread, that he would like to see not only the pins replaced by bolts but also a new bolt to prevent the ground fall potential and Rich praised him for his concern that others not be hurt on a route he put up. Maybe this is enough for me to go ahead and 'upgrade' the route.
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LongAgo
Trad climber
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Aug 17, 2007 - 08:48pm PT
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Just for fun and the thread record on Needles climbs, here's old pic of first ascent of Tiki (another name too?) near reservoir. Fun, about 5.8 and OK pro as I recall ...
Tom Higgins
LongAgo
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jgill
climber
Colorado
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Aug 17, 2007 - 11:05pm PT
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Hey Tom (LongAgo), here's a pic of you (in classy Bermuda shorts) climbing probably either at the Ten Pins or possibly on Tiki, back in the mid 1960s. You were working on a 1st ascent. Remember which one?
The other pic (long pants) is one of the few in my collection that I can't place. I think it's either Pete Cleveland or Bob Kamps - again mid 1960s - but I don't know what 1st ascent he is on. I realize with the many square miles of rock in the Needles, it would be a miracle if anyone could recognize this climb, but I'll ask anyway!
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Aug 17, 2007 - 11:17pm PT
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So what is the latest word on Pete Cleveland? Anyone kept up with him?
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Aug 18, 2007 - 03:29am PT
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Last I spoke to Pete Cleveland was when I interviewed him rather extensively by phone, about 5 years ago, for the free climbing history. He was still living near Devil's Lake and sounded as though all was well with him. I should get back in touch. He was still climbing at that time quite a bit, at Devil's Lake.
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LongAgo
Trad climber
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Aug 18, 2007 - 03:27pm PT
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John, sorry I can't help with the unknown climber in the second pic or the climb I was on in the first pic you posted. On the other hand, maybe my Bermuda shorts are best left to obscurity anyway! I mostly bought climbing garb from the Salvation Army, but these shorts are quite a low even in my shabby collection.
Johnboy, thanks for link to how climbers negotiated an agreement on sport versus trad approaches in Needles area. Long ago, I called for such agreements to quell the rising, divisive tide on climbing styles beginning in the late 70's. You may (or may not) be interested in a recent (2006) ramble on climbing style issues at my website, including reference to an agreement among Pinnacles (CA) climbers paralleling what your link describes. Here's the link:
http://www.tomhiggins.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=33&Itemid=19
Tom Higgins
LongAgo
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Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
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Aug 18, 2007 - 03:56pm PT
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Edit.. Enough said Jstan, thanks.
Prod.
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jstan
climber
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Aug 18, 2007 - 04:41pm PT
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Don emailed me from the same address in his profile. The person at that address is the real Don Storjohann. And what he had to say was exactly what Don would say under the circumstances, IMO.
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Hammer
Social climber
Custer, SD
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Aug 18, 2007 - 04:58pm PT
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I haven't looked at the links to Needles 'ethics' because I've heard all the arguements many, many times. The fact is that the very small group of diehard Needles 'ethics' makers don't climb in the Needles any more so we don't put much stock in their opinion.
Some of us who do climb some of the X rated routes every summer, sometimes several times each summer, are aware that fixed pitons that have been in place for thirty years or more are likely to be much less dependable now than when they were placed.
While we know Don's opinion on the matter, Rich never really got back to the issue and he is technically the first ascentionist. We would like to hear a yes or no from him.
Reasonable people should be able to discuss this stuff without getting their ropes in a twist.
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jstan
climber
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Aug 18, 2007 - 05:41pm PT
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Without saying anything specific Prod seemed to have some sort of reservation as to what the facts were. I responded merely to relieve him of any doubt as to whether the "Don" was actually Don or an impostor.
Apparently you have no such doubt so my job is done.
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Hammer
Social climber
Custer, SD
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Aug 18, 2007 - 07:05pm PT
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I'm the one he thought was the imposter. I didn't see any point in telling him I'm not although I guess now I just did. Thanks for straightening him out.
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I'm hurtin . . .
Ice climber
land of cheese and beer
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Aug 18, 2007 - 10:52pm PT
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Hammer writes:
I haven't looked at the links to Needles 'ethics' because I've heard all the arguements many, many times. The fact is that the very small group of diehard Needles 'ethics' makers don't climb in the Needles any more so we don't put much stock in their opinion.
I'm wondering who the 'we' is that you are referring to? The fact is that there are still a good number of people who support the opinions of the 'ethics' makers. Do they have to climb in the Needles for their opinions to matter?
Rone
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Aug 19, 2007 - 01:11am PT
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Tom, thanks for the link, a good read.
Hammer, I quit climbing in the needles back when they started charging entrance fees year round. Plenty of rock in the hills without looking to hard.
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Hammer
Social climber
Custer, SD
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Aug 19, 2007 - 05:40am PT
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'We' are a group of climbers who climb in the Needles every year. 'We' are the people who have established over a hundred new routes in the Needles in recent years. 'We' are the people who have replaced dozens of old button heads with modern bolts. 'We' are the people who have replaced all the old button head and webbing anchors with modern bolts and chains. 'We' are the people who climb the R and X rated routes that others won't. 'We' might want to replace suspect old pins with new bolts and 'We' might want to add a bolt here and there.
Yes, they have to climb in the Needles for their opinions to matter... and they have to climb the R and X rated routes that they haven't climbed in years (or never) if they want to be taken seriously by 'We'.
The 'ethics' were agreed upon by fewer than a dozen people over twenty years ago, people who no longer climb the routes they 'govern'. It is time for a new discussion of Needles ethics that includes the people who use the resource.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Aug 19, 2007 - 11:58am PT
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Don't ruin this thread...start a new one or contact Rich G. by email.
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Hammer
Social climber
Custer, SD
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Aug 19, 2007 - 03:19pm PT
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Ruin this thread???
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jstan
climber
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Aug 19, 2007 - 03:58pm PT
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I think Bob has a point. Getting into a discussion of how to proceed in an orderly fashion as regards protection in the area is a substantial change in topic. To do that on this thread both short changes your new topic and potentially can shut off the purely historical thread. Capech?
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 19, 2007 - 04:11pm PT
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Hammer, for what it is worth, I don't think my opinion is worth any more than anyone else's. I think issues like this should be settled by the regulars of an area, who hopefully will cast an eye backwards to tradition and forwards to what their acts may do to influence the future.
With all due respect, I don't think anyone here has any idea what standing, if any, you have in the local community. One thing is clear at the moment: there are no other contemporary local voices clamoring for the changes you propose.
In the case of the Needles, it seems to me that the route forward in this case is crystal-clear, to coin a phrase. There is a Black Hills Climber's Coalition whose membership is open to all Needle's climbers, and the BHCC has a fixed anchor committee that monitors and repairs anchors. They are the poeple who should do the work, and it is there that the discussion you are so interested in having should take place.
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