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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 18, 2007 - 07:43am PT
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A "one hammer" ascent might be a good middle ground. If you use the hammer, you leave what you hammered in the rock...and don't use heads in pin placements because they are cheaper.
Give's an extra incentive not to nail. saves weight, and prevents more nailing in the same spot on trade routes.
Just food for thought
peace
karl
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 18, 2007 - 08:28am PT
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I like Karl's idea and have on occasion used it.
Phule doesn't seem to have a high level of reading comprehension. Copperheads are NOT fair game. Fixed A5 is A1 until it blows. Its just russian roulette, no skill. If a placement can't be used clean then fix something that can be relied on over time.
On sandstone that is only one thing, though on hard rock more options are possible.
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raymond phule
climber
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Jun 18, 2007 - 08:52am PT
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"Phule doesn't seem to have a high level of reading comprehension."
Thanks.
"Copperheads are NOT fair game. Fixed A5 is A1 until it blows. Its just russian roulette, no skill."
Kind of agree but there are atleast some skill to test the placements. I think this was my point actually. I used lottery instead of roulette though.
"If a placement can't be used clean then fix something that can be relied on over time."
Thats a possibility. It doesn't seem to be the most popular opinion though because that would most of the time result in drilling.
Have many fixed copperheads exist on elcap? A couple of thousands?
So what ethical rules on yosemite do you actually propose? ( I have climbed in yos but not on sandstone and I belive most people here think about yos in this discussion)
Rivet or bolt all fixed mank sections?
Climp routes with fixed mank without bringing hammers?
Leave every hammered placement?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 18, 2007 - 08:56am PT
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Phase out the heads. They are not a viable long term tactic.
Then phase out the hammers.
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raymond phule
climber
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Jun 18, 2007 - 09:26am PT
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Ok, I understand such a stance and it could definitely be the best thing to do.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 18, 2007 - 10:52am PT
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Raymond- to be clear, I am advocating clean climbing first, for reasons of rock preservation, and hammerless climbing second, for reasons of adventure and style. Clean means no mechanical impact force is used for any placement to gain passage. Fixed gear of any sort is fair game as long as you don't pound IMO.
Obviously, this game changes as the quality and quantity of fixed gear varies.
Ideally, no fixed placements other than drilled ones should be employed to be as clean as can be. The early clean ascent of NW face of Half Dome by Rowell, Henneck and Robinson was accomplished using no fixed pitons and set the standard for clean as can be. I'll coin the word SPOTLESS for this level of clean climbing. Their's was a clean and spotless ascent.
Most of these distinctions are of historical importance only when a first clean or first spotless ascent is being claimed. Having done the Muir Wall clean and hammerless still allows for the first spotless ascent by another party. I have never done the Zodiac, for instance, but I would shoot for a spotless ascent since the route has already been done routinely without hammering. The complication lies with the fixed gear (particularly copperheads) blocking otherwise usable clean placements on that route. While it would be nice to follow right behind a cleanup crew, the reality would be that a hammer would likely be necessary to clean out the mank to allow passage on unhammered gear placements. Whether this sort of tactic can actually result in a clean ascent is clearly controversial but of little historical consequence unless a first is being claimed. Theoretically, you would need to repeat the pitch or overall ascent to claim a first under these circumstances which gets a little convoluted to be sure.
As long as impact remains the primary concern, there are lots of strategies to deal with a single blown placement. A simple piece of coathanger wire weighs nothing but may allow you passage without pounding in a pinch. I do not advocate for cheater sticks as a conventional tool by suggesting this emergency approach. No cheater sticks should be employed in any claimed first clean or spotless ascent as a matter of fair play.
The argument for having the second carry a hammer to aid in cleaning with less individual placement damage is pretty solid, especially in softer stone. Karl's middle way should really become the norm on most clean walls IMO. It takes the hammer temptation out of the leader's decision making, if that is needed, but still allows for placement maintenance.
Try first, tap last (or not at all) is the ethic that I have been trying to instill. Simple in concept, harder to pull off under duress. Therein lies the real struggle and drama, as we all know.
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 18, 2007 - 11:18am PT
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shit ..
.. i just can't stay away ..
.. there is no way that fixed placements should only be things that wont blow (ie: bolts) .. that would make routes like pacific ocean way boring! ..
.. i've clipped my fair share of heads, and have yet to have one blow while i was one it .. because i test them pretty well ..
 fixed gear like copperheads are time bombs .. therefore you should test the sh#t out of them before you go on them .. if they blow -- replace it.
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Colt
climber
Midpines
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Jun 18, 2007 - 12:19pm PT
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I too like the one hammer idea that Karl proposed.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jun 18, 2007 - 01:39pm PT
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yeah, but it also means an increased number of fixed (or not so fixed) pins on route...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 18, 2007 - 10:45pm PT
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That's the trade-off, you can have increasing damage on trade routes or fixed gear in the extra dicey spots. What's your call?
The fact of having to give up a valuable piece in order to nail will probably keep from from just saying "the route's cleaned up now, it's hammer time"
The leader carrys the hammer, no back-cleaning, if they remove a fixed pin placed by a previous party, they have to pass by using clean gear.
Peace
karl
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 19, 2007 - 01:52am PT
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riley ..
.. umm .. i dont think that my stomping (i dont jump on the pieces) generates 1200 lbs of force ..
probably more like 600 lbs of force .. but i have no idea .. i've never measured it ..
.. i certainly dont do a light test on fixed heads .. i'd rather have them blow under test, and place my own, than have it blow when i'm on it ..
.. this of course should be prefixed with "It denpends on the situation" .. -- because i've also gone onto fixed heads without testing .. most of the time when coming off of super scary gear ..
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raymond phule
climber
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Jun 19, 2007 - 04:23am PT
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".. there is no way that fixed placements should only be things that wont blow (ie: bolts) .. that would make routes like pacific ocean way boring! .."
Yes, probably. It just doesn't seem to exist good rules that everybody could agree on and different rules could apply on different routes.
I belive that it would be good to place rivets or bolts on the fixed sections on the "easier" routes. For exampe the prow and lurking fear. They where very easy to do clean in the conditions I found them but they still has a couple of sections with fixed heads. Bolts or rivets at those sections would do nothing about the character of those routes. (I did them 10 years ago and dont know the conditions of the routes now...)
Edit: tried to find a topo of the prow on the net but only found some trip reports. I got the impression that people climb another route than I did... Remember bolt ladders and straigtforward clean aid but not a lot of fixed heads or hooking.
end edit:
What about zodiac? Is it still a lot of sections that uses fixed mank? Would rivets at those places change the route?
Karl's method could work pretty good especially if later parties remove completely unecessary pieces.
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Jun 19, 2007 - 05:01am PT
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The best aid climber in the Valley in that golden era of the late '60s was my friend Tom Frost, then probably Kor, then Royal and Pratt (probably equal), then right close behind all the other good men, Yvon, TM, and you wouldn't believe this but I could aid well too. I wasn't just a free climber. I remember when Jimmy Dunn said something to the effect that the NA Wall wasn't as hard as Canary Pass (a little route Kor and I did in Eldorado, when I was 14). People had told me the West Face of Sentinel was A5, and I thought it was about A3 when I took my student up it who had been climbing 3 months. We did it in half the time of each of the previous parties. I gotta get off the subject of myself.
About Royal's bolt on the Muir. He talked with me a lot about that when I was at his home for an extended stay while writing his bio. One has to realize that it is infinitely easier to do a pitch while being belayed by a partner the normal way. Royal's solo method was primitive compared to methods used now. His best protection was sliding up a prusik knot and doing things that were a bit strange. He had been on the wall 9 or so days and, I think, was feeling it. He's never made excuses, but when Yvon and TM did it they were pumped with adrenaline, pushing out into a new frontier, and under those circumstances sometimes you really excel yourself. There was a strange psychology working against Royal at that moment. No really safe belay system, compared to having a partner. As Steve has eloquently said, one fall was enough at that point, but there was something more I'm not sure I can adequately express at this hour of the night. I think the soloing apparatus, the mechanism he was using to belay himself, was clearly a bit dangerous, and Royal simply decided not to die right there. With a normal belayer, I doubt he would have hesitated or needed a bolt. Royal isn't perfect, he is the first to admit. On his second ascent of the Nose, for example, he got up above the lousy Harding bolts above Texas Flake and "in shameless cowardice" (as he puts it) placed a good bolt below Boot. Of course when Roper and Kor and Denny made the third ascent they could not resist chopping that bolt, taking any opportunity to somewhat mitigate the sense of Royal's superiority.
As for the Zodiac, it amazes me how many people on this thread have climbed that wall. Somewhere near the end of the 1960s I began to learn how to do those routes without actually doing them. I know that must sound strange, and it will provoke a lot of criticism of me probably, but let's just say I felt my spirit go up into many of those places, quietly. I have always had a sense of the value of leaving certain climbs undone. Many first ascents around Boulder could have been made but weren't. I saw and knew I could do them, were there a couple bolts... But there was no way to place a bolt on lead, ground up, so I left those climbs undone. Then another generation came along, rappelling down from the top, and drilling bolts to create all sorts of routes. Some of those people assumed we had never conceived of doing such routes. Those rocks started to look like my daughter's sequened dress, sparkling with bolts. How beautiful not to climb certain routes you so desire to climb, until you are truly ready to be the measure of that climb. Every time I've done a route and lowered my standard or style to just get up, I've felt ultimately disappointed. Forgive me if I seem nuts. I'm tired. It's late. I probably am nuts.
I will share one last thought. I actually invented the bashie. My father headed the University of Colorado physical plant, and he had all sorts of workers under him. I approached him one day and asked if he could have someone in the machine-shop department cut some metal to the size of about half the current size RURP, and drill a hole in it for a sling, and sharpen one end. He came back with a bucket full of these new, hyper modern rurps. I was eager to use them and went up on a new route in Eldorado (age 15 maybe). I aided up and got to a tiny seam. I set the newfangled dinky rurp and, with one hit of the hammer, discovered the metal was too soft. It instantly was crushed into a bashie right there and then, but I clipped into it and used it. Later, on another climb, I used six in a row, and when I got to the top of that section my partner flicked the rope accidentally and all of them fell out.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Apr 24, 2010 - 08:14pm PT
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Bump
Clean accounts are always welcome here.
Mucci
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