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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Apr 17, 2007 - 08:56pm PT
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I'm not sure how *legal* things were.
People who are being treated for mental problems are barred from legally buying firearms.
And it's a Federal crime to bring a gun onto a school campus.
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Burns
Trad climber
Nowhere special
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Apr 17, 2007 - 09:01pm PT
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He was apparently not being treated for mental problems. His writing professor recommended that he seek counseling, but he never went and could not be forced to. There was no record of his mental problems. Had there been, then (hopefully) he wouldn't have been able to obtain the guns.
And it's a Federal crime to bring a gun onto a school campus
I don't see your point with that one.
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Mimi
climber
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Apr 17, 2007 - 09:12pm PT
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If you're going to shoot someone on campus, you aren't caring about it being a federal crime.
Now that we have voiced our opinions about how there should be better enforcement and stricter requirements, how are the authorities going to retrieve all these weapons? And do you believe they should be allowed to go door to door to search?
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Apr 17, 2007 - 09:18pm PT
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Burns writes:
"There was no record of his mental problems."
According to the Chicago paper:
"Investigators believe Cho at some point had been taking medication for depression."
This tells me he must have lied on the paperwork he filled out when he bought his gats. Had he mentioned his depression when asked on the form he had to fill out, the guns never would have been transferred.
Someone who lies on the Federal forms can't very well be said to have "aquired" the gun "legally".
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-070417vtech-shootings,0,1137509.story?coll=chi-homepagepromo440-fea
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Burns
Trad climber
Nowhere special
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Apr 17, 2007 - 09:19pm PT
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OK, so you're not really saying that 'this guy has no respect for the law because he brought a gun on campus, which is a Federal crime'. Its pretty clear that this guy had no respect for much of anything. Are you saying that the law against guns on campuses is a bad law? As in, if that law didn't exist, then there would be law-abiding 19-year-old citizens packing heat in german class? I suppose I see the point there, but I just don't feel that it is a good idea.
Did you ever bring candy into class and your teacher said "If you didn't bring enough for everyone, then nobody can have any"? It almost seems like you have to do the same thing with guns. Either everyone has one and the deterrent factor is there (I'd better not try to rob this guy since he's packing) or nobody has them. Of course, neither is possible.
Edit: Chaz - If the screening process relies on the individual purchasing the gun to truthfully fill out a form, then that process is royally f*cked up, and I'm a lot more scared to walk down the street than I used to be.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Apr 17, 2007 - 09:26pm PT
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"Edit: Chaz - If the screening process relies on the individual purchasing the gun to truthfully fill out a form, then that process is royally f*cked up, and I'm a lot more scared to walk down the street than I used to be."
Perhaps it is f*cked up.
But it can't be said that this scumbag aquired his guns legally.
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Burns
Trad climber
Nowhere special
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Apr 17, 2007 - 09:32pm PT
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The guy walked into a gun store, plopped down a credit card, and bought a glock. Background check and all. If it was that easy, it may as well have been legal. Making it illegal to check a box 'no' instead of 'yes' with no way to verify that the correct box is checked is about as useful as making it illegal to think impure thoughts.
I am a bit curious what constitues a disqualifying mental illness, as saddling someone with a stigma like 'mentally ill' is probably not something done lightly.
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Mimi
climber
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Apr 17, 2007 - 09:37pm PT
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He had his green card. He's lived in the States since he was 8 or 10 years old. What additional 'screening' are you suggesting?
The guy had hidden problems and a girl made him more insane to the point of becoming a homicidal maniac after he caught her cheating. Sound familiar?
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Mimi
climber
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Apr 17, 2007 - 10:11pm PT
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Lois, who in our society is going to initiate a screening process and push it through to legislation?
The citizenry could begin to be screened in the public and private school systems. Troubled youths stand out like sore thumbs. What then? Do we force medication, mental health therapy, a mental hospital, parental reprogramming? Ain't happening. Mental health is still in the dark ages and with the civil rights implications, it's witchcraft.
And getting all worked up over new gun control laws is unfortunate. Compare these tragic deaths to staph infections in our hospitals. About 90,000 loved ones die annually from hospital-induced infections as a result of poor procedures and negligence.
What about car deaths and influenza; each about 36,000 family members annually.
Heart disease that can mostly be prevented with better diet and meds; 640,000 dads and uncles.
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Crimpergirl
Social climber
Hell on earth wondering what I did to deserve it
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Apr 17, 2007 - 10:17pm PT
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Jody:
I have heard of John Lott. In fact, I know a great deal about him and his work. It makes up a large portion of many of my lectures. Unfortunately he is no longer respected in the research community because of some major ethical problems. This is not to say that his message is necessarily bad. BTW, not thinking Lott has been at the University of Chicago for some time.
Healyje: I would suggest you read Kleck's work - his recent work -(assuming you haven't - if I'm wrong, my apologies) and not merely what others say about it. And especially not what folks say about his work that is very old. Often people misinterpret research and the next thing you know, you have a reputation for something that is inaccurate. For instance, many cite some of my work as supporting why marriage is safer than being single for women. The old "marriage initiative." That is not an appropriate use of my research, nor does it match any of my findings. Still that's what is out there. Ugh.
One last thing, and it is my opinion only...but you ask why others are in the DGU area. Well, it is because it is super volatile. And most of us don't need that in our career. I wrote a paper that looked at DGU for rape. You know how some folks say that DGU for rape helps and others say no it hurts? Well, none of that is based on any national probability sample info. I have such data. I looked at it. Had 12 years of data at the time I looked at it. What did I find? Not one, zero, zippo, zilcho case of DGU for completed rape in the USA for women 12+ years of age. With this paper, I could have had the DGU community AND the violence against women community out to kick my ass. As an untenured faculty member, I don't need that. The paper sits in my office.
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Mimi
climber
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Apr 17, 2007 - 10:25pm PT
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Of course they do Lois, but many of them are preventable. A random act of insanity is often just that, an unpreventable random act by a nutjob.
If this horrible tragedy shows us anything, it's that we all have to try and be observant and be aware of such possibilities. Luckily, the odds are super high in our favor that most of us by far will die of old age.
And if you are ever in a twisted situation like that, God forbid, consider the impossible to make the possible happen. Just like the people on Flight 93. Even if it gets you killed saving others. Nothing like altruism for a karmic boost. I hope so anyway.
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Ouch!
climber
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Apr 17, 2007 - 10:54pm PT
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"Ouch, you are such a cranky old fart. I am sorry you can't handle the fact that you will die before most of us"
LOL! Lois, don't let the crybaby worry you. It's tough for him to swallow that he could never be as good a cop as I was. Of course in my day, they didn't let whiny temperamental twits stumble around with firearms.
Just pity him and hope he somehow makes it to adulthood before he croaks.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 17, 2007 - 11:47pm PT
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Crimper, I looked at what I found and the research that the entire policy universe on the right quotes of 2.5 million DGU's is total hash on the surface of it and would never past muster in engineering or physics from what I can tell of it.
Can you point me to anything recent? Of his or of decent DGU research in general? Bottom line for me is I don't see his DGU [older] stats holding water at all and certainly not supporting an entire wing of policy.
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Ouch!
climber
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Apr 18, 2007 - 12:13am PT
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LOL! Everybody is always picking on poor little Jody.
Lois, he was no doubt that little snotnose kid the bullies kicked all over the playground. Good reason to make LE a way of life.
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Mimi
climber
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Apr 18, 2007 - 12:25am PT
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I remember being bummed when I realized that climbers could be as#@&%es.
Seeing two cops denigrate each other really makes me sad that cops can be buttheads too. I suppose if you put folks up on a sanitary pedestal, the lid usually suffers and worse yet, the seat gets broken.
Jody, OUCH! was creating some funny cartoons while you were away. I hope you don't fight with each other all the time now and cause either of you to get disgusted and leave the ST.
Now I see how bad it can get after my experience with AC. Good threads get hijacked and screwed up this way. Let's try and get a grip on the in-fighting shall we?
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Mimi
climber
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Apr 18, 2007 - 12:41am PT
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Been there Jody. I hope you two can sort it out.
OUCH! Leave Jody alone. You're older than him and you should know better!
Don't worry Jody, when OUCH! gets upset these days, he simply posts Woody's chicken crotch. Or is that Locker?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 18, 2007 - 12:43am PT
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Crimp, definitely going to need a pointer as there is nothing but 90's NCVS vs. (Kleck) DGU out there argued ad nauseum. One gets the impression there are no official federal DGU numbers by design and it looks like the entire DGU battle is waged circularly by the same dozen folks all arguing about old, bad data - Kleck's old stuff being some of the worst from a methodology perspective. If I see the wholly bogus 2.5 mil number one more time in another circular reference trail I'm going to scream. Recent, well-supported DGU data if you please...!
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Burns
Trad climber
Nowhere special
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Apr 18, 2007 - 12:46am PT
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In difficult times like these, I just have to remember four letters: WWJD.
What Would Johnny Do?
A young cowboy named Billy Joe
Grew restless on the farm
A boy filled with wanderlust
Who really meant no harm
He changed his clothes and shined his boots
And combed his dark hair down
And his mother cried as he walked out;
"Don't take your guns to town, son
Leave your guns at home, Bill
Don't take your guns to town."
He sang a song as on he rode,
His guns hung at his hips
He rode into a cattle town,
A smile upon his lips
He stopped and walked into a bar and laid his money down
But his mother's words echoed again;
"Don't take your guns to town, son
Leave your guns at home, Bill
Don't take your guns to town."
He drank his first strong liquor then to calm his shaking hand
And tried to tell himself at last he had become a man
A dusty cowpoke at his side began to laugh him down
And he heard again his mother's words;
"Don't take your guns to town, son
Leave your guns at home, Bill
Don't take your guns to town."
Bill was raged and Billy Joe reached for his gun to draw
But the stranger drew his gun and fired before he even saw
As Billy Joe fell to the floor the crowd all gathered 'round
And wondered at his final words;
"Don't take your guns to town, son
Leave your guns at home, Bill
Don't take your guns to town."
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Mimi
climber
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Apr 18, 2007 - 12:53am PT
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Don't take your drill to climb son,
Leave your drill at home, Bill
Sorry, OT.
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