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Rattlesnake Arch
Social climber
Home is where we park it
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Dec 17, 2018 - 08:22am PT
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I don't think I would continue to climb with someone who dropped me... twice... unless I deeply cared for them.
"While training for El Cap, he brought McCandless along for help and twice ended up suffering injuries. In the film, he says he considered breaking up with her as a result of the accidents.
“I never really blamed her,” he said in Canada, walking back his statement. “I wanted to blame her, but honestly, it’s more on me. Basically, I slipped, I fell, I hurt my ankle — she was there and she was belaying, but it’s not anything she did. It was just sort of unfortunate.”
“I was very much committed to learning: What did I do wrong?” McCandless said. “Could I have done something differently? How am I affecting you, and how are you affecting me?”
Sensing the tension in the room, Vasarhelyi chimed in.
“I think what the film was trying to say,” she offered, “was that we were questioning Alex’s judgment for training with a novice when he’s training for this big objective...""
https://www.pressreader.com/usa/los-angeles-times/20180930/283416307600104
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 17, 2018 - 08:30am PT
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A n00b can easily drop someone belaying as they lack experience.
I've seen it done right in front of me.
Kauk got dropped almost to the ground by his girlfriend years ago due to inexperience.
Give it up people, YOU are responsible for climbing with n00bs ....
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Dec 17, 2018 - 09:26am PT
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You want some toxic?
Wiki: Papal Bull 1452:
We grant you [Kings of Spain and Portugal] by these present documents, with our Apostolic Authority, full and free permission to invade, search out, capture, and subjugate the Saracens and pagans and any other unbelievers and enemies of Christ wherever they may be, as well as their kingdoms, duchies, counties, principalities, and other property [...] and to reduce their persons into perpetual servitude.[3]
What group of people hasn't been exploited, enslaved, or murdered at some time in history?
After Labor asked for too much, like a living wage, many Corporations went to exploit the people of an opposing political ideology. So much for political ideological differences when there's money to be made. LOL.
Then the robber barons had to invent a way to make money out of thin air by exploiting the dreams of the suckers still breathing. I give you white on white cannibalism---Toxic Assets.
Wiki: The Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000 (CFMA) is United States federal legislation that officially ensured modernized regulation[1] of financial products known as over-the-counter (OTC) derivatives. It was signed into law on December 21, 2000 by President Bill Clinton. It clarified the law so most OTC derivative transactions between "sophisticated parties" would not be regulated as "futures" under the Commodity Exchange Act of 1936 (CEA) or as "securities" under the federal securities laws.
There currently appears to be a lot of Real Estate development going on. When it pops let's blame Alex. Yuk Yuk.
Edit: delete again. Credit source.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 17, 2018 - 11:05am PT
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What group of people hasn't been exploited, enslaved, or murdered at some time in history?
Our snowflakes.
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Dec 17, 2018 - 01:44pm PT
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Our snowflakes.
Snowflakes have no historical context/content. Would you elaborate?
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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Dec 17, 2018 - 01:54pm PT
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We are all born into our own skins, white or otherwise, and the reverse racism that condemns us for that seems laughable. We can be sensitive to cultural atrocities of the past, and our nation has come around to a number of concessions in attempts to rectify past tragedies. We can be sensitive to how the past has led to lingering issues, and work to avoid perpetuating them. What we can't do is paint every sort of psychological interaction as a consequence of white male misogyny, and declare every behavior, even apparently socially beneficial ones, as contaminated, simply if the "perpetrator" comes from that reviled group of white men.
Very well said.
The vast majority of Americans are butthurt that "Columbus Day" is no longer celebrated the same way as it is in fact a holiday celebrating the de facto beginning of a genocide "white-washed" into discovering empty lands etc etc. Columbus was a Slaver who was sent back to Spain in chains he was so brutal and hated by his fellow Spaniards...
That's funny tut. I don't know anyone that is upset about that.
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KyleO
Gym climber
Calgary, AB
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Dec 17, 2018 - 01:55pm PT
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In a scheduled debate at the University of Toronto involving Dr. Jordan B. Peterson and students regarding the issue of government mandated gender neutral pronouns, university officials announced over the loud speaker there would be councilors on location for the students in the event they needed therapy after the debate.
I think that speaks volumes regarding those that shout loudest regarding oppression and the way universities, governments and institutions are petting these divisions through identity politics.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 17, 2018 - 02:02pm PT
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Regarding Alex getting dropped. Shouldn't there have been a knot in the end of that rope to prevent exactly what happened? Who's responsibility was it to check on that, a noob or a highly experienced professional?
Now that I think about it, it's even weirder. Shouldn't she have been tied in to that end of the rope? As I recall the movie makes it look like she was at a belay on the wall?
I would imagine that he figured out pretty quickly that he was at least partly at fault, but that didn't get in the movie.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Dec 17, 2018 - 02:46pm PT
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I dont care if it's your first damn day. I taught over 100 people to never drop anyone. Ever. Takes 10 minutes and some reinforcement.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Dec 17, 2018 - 03:05pm PT
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All of this talk about Alex in FREE SOLO made me think of Chauncy the Gardener in BEING THERE. It was my favorite movie for a long time. People projected all kinds of stuff onto Chauncy. It's ALL pretty hilarious.
I've posted this photo on ST before, I think, but that would have been before Alex free-soloed El Cap. Funny thing is, this kid's name is Alex also.
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Alexey
climber
San Jose, CA
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Dec 17, 2018 - 03:18pm PT
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Females risk it all the time in nearly every animal phylum for their offspring...much more rare for their mates unless they are the rare truly monogamous species. Human females, not so much. recently I met on the trail to my climbing destination mama bear with two cubs and backed off.
I would do the same if I would meet Erin Monahan alone
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Dec 17, 2018 - 04:25pm PT
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^^^
No we aren't their therapists, we are just their fans that reward them financially for what they are doing.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 17, 2018 - 04:33pm PT
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She brings up a lot of good points,
almost none of which pertain to her premise.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 17, 2018 - 06:35pm PT
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Leave Alex alone.
You're an idiot and idiots just end up killing whomever they mess with ....
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Dec 17, 2018 - 07:13pm PT
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He who makes a beast out of himself, get's rid of the pain of being a man.
Who said it?
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nah000
climber
now/here
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Dec 17, 2018 - 07:51pm PT
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trying to wrap my brain/heart around the entirety of this hot mess of assembled words, has left me ultimately giving up...
too much that is delivered, with seemingly authoritatively intended and objectively framed language, would have no hope of passing the most ideologically driven third party review.
at the same time there is much that comes, for me, from both an interesting perspective and, seemingly obviously, from a place of honestly experienced passionately felt emotion.
and so those who entirely dismiss ms. monahan’s writing [because there are intrinsic inconsistencies, because there are exaggerations/half-truths and painfully obvious decontextualizations and because etc.] fail to open themselves to what is some very interesting emotional work that i see ms. monahan as doing for both herself and ultimately, as well, for us as a collective whole.
at the same time, i hope, as she continues to go down this path of exploration, that someday she can better articulate her own experience... one that i am assuming has left her with the intense desire to formulate such a “rigid theory of everything” [as she attempts to lay down in the piece that started this whole thread.]
for me, the only art that is unsuccessful is that which makes one go “meh”.
based on the responses of the last ten plus pages, regardless of its intent, on some level ms. m has created an incredibly succcessful rorschach test for all of us to take.
i hope she continues kicking at the hornet’s nest.
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Aeriq
Sport climber
100-year Visitor
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Dec 17, 2018 - 08:17pm PT
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
Dec 17, 2018 - 07:13pm PT
He who makes a beast out of himself, get's rid of the pain of being a man.
Who said it?
I believe it is from the Beowulf story
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Dec 17, 2018 - 11:05pm PT
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nah000 said:
based on the responses of the last ten plus pages, regardless of its intent, on some level ms. m has created an incredibly succcessful rorschach test for all of us to take.
Exactly. At the outset, independent of the cogency of her argument, all she had to do was attack our "hero" Alex Honnold. I haven't even seen the movie, which somewhat disqualifies me from speaking knowledgeably on this thread, or in critiquing her piece on the whole. But I'll continue anyhow.
Personally, that she uses Alex as her fulcrum: that doesn't pull me in. Because on some levels, I don't give a damn what Alex does on the rock. He climbs for himself and so do I. So that she disparages him is not particularly a hook for me.
But it certainly is for some of us, and that probably has more to do with her choice of singling him out. Whether or not he's the right guy to focus on: she doesn't care. The fact is it worked, no? At least for reaching our particular population; a cohort of risktakers. A cohort historically comprising young men. (Now, many of us are just a bunch of older young men, but that's beside the point.) And certainly if she were angling purely to rile a bunch of us on this forum, she was spot on in picking on Alex.
We've got fewer women on this forum than ever. That is to our detriment for a variety of reasons. The least of which is that we have almost no input here from women on this particular topic. We don't even know how they feel about it, right? Now we are the echo chamber, yes?
But look at the picture she posted of some young women watching the film about Alex. If this is how a portion of our female population responded to that film, then dammit, I'm taking notice.
Their expression says everything to me:
[I can't be sure what those women are watching with pen and paper at the ready. Might be a sour Chippendale's routine. But I'll take it as Erin presented it.]
Looping back to the book I recommended on the previous page: Sex and War: How Biology Explains Warfare and Terrorism and Offers a Path to a Safer World
Just scrap Erin's essay altogether, or peruse it with respectful curiosity and then look beyond it – perhaps read this book. It addresses everything she's talking about, and then some. And the authors do a much better job of laying out the problems with male aggression and the corresponding balancing effect of female temperament.
In short, my synopsis of the book, Sex & War:
In chimpanzees and in human beings, males and young males alone, for the most part, engage in organized team aggression. That's male bonding, in a nutshell, and that's its purpose. Females simply do not take part. In chimpanzee populations, they might sit by and watch and get excited and root for the males, but they don't join in with the male's organized aggression toward lone, outgroup chimpanzees in order to expand their territory.
Its key that this is also largely ascribed to young male behavior. Older males tend to have a moderating effect on the aggressive and violent behavior of young males, especially in human beings. But older human males are still men. They still retain a propensity for acting rashly, aggressively and sometimes violently in comparison with women.
Enter women's reproductive rights as a critical player in the thesis. In third world countries where women do not have access to contraception and control over reproductive rights, there is a disproportionate amount of aggressive young men, uneducated, running around on the streets, causing trouble and getting into crime. (Higher birthrate equals higher proportion of youth to adults.)
If/when women are given control over their own reproduction, they typically have less children. In that scenario, the ratio of young men to old men comes more into line, and there are less children overall vying for education, which means better access to education overall.
Better education combined with less young, aggressive, angry men on the streets often equals a better chance at improving socioeconomic conditions and those third world countries begin bootstrapping themselves and moving toward civil society. (This helps dilute the seat of terrorism.)
As women become better educated, and have more access to political posts, the female propensity for acting less rashly than men of all ages in the face of conflicts real and perceived, helps balance out geopolitical decision-making, which dilutes the propensity for developed nations engaging in retaliatory war.
In short, regarding the empowerment of women – that project is critical to the survival of our species.
Regarding Erin Monahan and her piece: Ambient Dominion.
This is what Erin is angling at, whether she knows it or not. But she's overcharged with her own rage, and though that has drawn attention, it doesn't currently show so well in terms of presenting a cogent argument.
Feminist rage might be helpful in stirring the pot, but it's not a unifier.
However, in the long haul, empowering women through control over their reproductive rights, allowing them access to higher education, which begets access to a more balanced distribution of women in decision-making positions in companies and in politics, is potentially a balancer of the aggressive, warrior-like tendencies of men, and also a potential unifier in the political realm, both local and geopolitical.
That's what I think about, when I struggle to understand exactly what door Erin Monahan is knocking on, or breaking down, as the case may be.
That's my response to the Rorschach she has presented for me.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 17, 2018 - 11:50pm PT
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Enter women's reproductive rights as a critical player in the thesis.
If you want to bring reproduction and biology into the fore it should be noted that whether it's chimp, human, or rams butting heads these male behaviors are to a degree serving females by trying to gain favor in mating. And, in humans, if you get all the way down to the level of the biomechanics and biochemistry of sperm competition as they did in the Manchester study it shows human females are not monogamous by 'nature'; just the opposite and that likely plays a significant role in the evolution of male behavior. So it's not just the testosterone, it's testosterone and estrogen in an evolutionary dance where male dominance behaviors are only recently more problematic (from an evolutionary perspective) against the backdrop of a modern, overpopulated world saturated by the internet and strewn with advanced weaponry.
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