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Lennox
climber
in the land of the blind
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Jul 27, 2018 - 06:18pm PT
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Trump has touted his zero-tolerance illegal immigration policy as a way of decreasing crimes such as murder and rape—despite the utterly annoying fact that crime rates are at historic lows and some obnoxiously inconvenient studies that show that immigrants (illegal or otherwise) commit fewer crimes than the rest of us.
But the writer in the article linked below may have hit upon a solution based on a somewhat conservative(!) Saudi model (albeit one that may not be popular within the sausagefest known as the SuperTopo forum) that could potentially lower the overall crime rate to levels undreamt of in even Jeff Beauregard Sessions wettest elven dreams.
https://www.alternet.org/election-2016/modest-proposal-trump-has-it-all-wrong-prevent-crime-we-need-do-some-exteme-vetting
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Jul 27, 2018 - 07:07pm PT
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overturn bedrock decisions such as Citizens United
Bedrock decisions? Maybe, after all, corporations are people, my friend.
Of course, as explained by the great Mitt Romney:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
We probably don't reflect enough on the benevolence of modern corporations--just think of all the wonderful goods and services they produce, the employment opportunities they provide, and if we're lucky they provide some modest returns to those who risk their hard earned (or perhaps inherited, but that's irrelevant to this point) capital to fund such marvelous institutions.
Thankfully the Supreme Court recognizes that such useful organizations are in fact legally "people," entitled to full protections under the law. (But that doesn't mean they should pay taxes like natural born humans--that would be a form of double taxation, as the owners of the corporations pay taxes on dividends and capital gains, so it's not quite true that corporations are exactly the same as humans in every respect.)
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Lennox
climber
in the land of the blind
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Jul 27, 2018 - 07:21pm PT
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Instead of listening to the blathering pseudo-analysis of some anonymous idiot who chose the avatar “blah blah,” I suggest you watch “The Corporation” if you haven’t yet, and watch it again if you have.
There is a sequel coming soon!
http://thecorporation.com/film/about-film
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jul 27, 2018 - 07:29pm PT
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Re blah blah: do what I do ignore. First, the guy lies about being a lawyer. Second, when he holds up Heller and Citizen's United as shining examples of jurisprudence, you know he doesn't know WTF he's talking about.
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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Jul 27, 2018 - 08:16pm PT
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Trump has touted his zero-tolerance illegal immigration policy as a way of decreasing crimes such as murder and rape—despite the utterly annoying fact that crime rates are at historic lows and some obnoxiously inconvenient studies that show that immigrants (illegal or otherwise) commit fewer crimes than the rest of us.
That's a neat apples/oranges trick you just pulled. Maybe you can dig up a citation re crime rate for illegals only? Never mind they're already committing a crime by being here--hence the word illegal. For this exercise, we'll give that one a pass.
So, crime rates for people in the U.S. illegally vs citizens and immigrants here legally. (A non alt-left website preferred.) Good luck.
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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Jul 27, 2018 - 08:21pm PT
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Instead of listening to the blathering pseudo-analysis of some anonymous idiot who chose the avatar “blah blah,” I suggest you watch “The Corporation” if you haven’t yet, and watch it again if you have.
I'll be sure to watch The Prize, Fast Food Nation, Countdown to Zero, Motorcycle Diaries, Bowling for Columbine and give old Upton Sinclair's The Jungle a reread when I'm done.
Libs are such drones. :rolleyes:
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Jul 27, 2018 - 08:23pm PT
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Instead of listening to the blathering pseudo-analysis of some anonymous idiot who chose the avatar “blah blah,”
"blahblah" is not an avatar, it's a screen name. You sure you're qualified to be a substitute teacher?
Re blah blah: do what I do ignore. First, the guy lies about being a lawyer. Second, when he holds up Heller and Citizen's United as shining examples of jurisprudence, you know he doesn't know WTF he's talking about.
Ignoring is fine (but, hmmm, are you in fact ignoring, when you just responded substantively to my post? And are you sure that apostrophe belongs in Citizens?).
Defamation is a little less fine: please do tell when I've ever lied about being a lawyer.
Or admit you're a liar yourself by making a false accusation?
Whether I'm a lawyer is very easy to prove. If you explain your false accusation and there's a reasonable explanation, that's fine, just go back to your version of "ignoring" and we'll move on. Perhaps I punked you a bit by pretending a to be non-lawyer in response to your nonsense, who knows. But if you continue with your nonsense and false accusations, you'll sound like more of a fool than usual, although I'm not sure that's much of a deterrent.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jul 27, 2018 - 08:31pm PT
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So, crime rates for people in the U.S. illegally vs citizens and immigrants here legally. (A non alt-left website preferred.) Good luck.
Google is Your Friend (Click here)
Trump started this debate, and as usual he was lying, nothing new.
How about the Cato Institute study, or are Libertarians to liberal for your taste?
https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/is-illegal-immigration-linked-to-more-or-less-crime/
Alex Nowrasteh, with the libertarian Cato Institute, analyzed the Texas data to make a comparison of immigrants in the country illegally and native-born residents. In a recent post he noted that in 2015 Texas police made 815,689 arrests of native-born Americans, 37,776 arrests of immigrants in the country illegally and 20,323 arrests of legal immigrants. Given the relative populations for each group, he wrote, “The arrest rate for illegal immigrants was 40 percent below that of native-born Americans.”
In addition, he wrote, the homicide arrest rate for native-born Americans was “about 46 percent higher than the illegal immigrant homicide arrest rate.”
Other research from the Cato Institute attempted to provide national estimates. A study published on June 4 used data from the Census Bureau’s American Community Survey for 2016 and applied statistical modeling to estimate the number of incarcerated immigrants in the country illegally. It filtered the data using characteristics correlated with being an immigrant in the country illegally, such as whether someone is a noncitizen but has not served in the military or received Social Security income. The research concluded: “Illegal immigrants are 47 percent less likely to be incarcerated than natives.” (And legal immigrants are even less likely to be in jail or prison.)
Cato, June 4: If native-born Americans were incarcerated at the same rate as illegal immigrants, about 930,000 fewer natives would be incarcerated. Conversely, if natives were incarcerated at the same rate as legal immigrants, about 1.5 million fewer natives would be in adult correctional facilities.
Another study, “Does Undocumented Immigration Increase Violent Crime?,” which was published in the journal Criminology in March, looked at the influx of undocumented immigrants into communities in recent decades and concluded, “Increased concentrations of undocumented immigrants are associated with statistically significant decreases in violent crime.”
One of the study’s authors, Michael Light, a professor of sociology and Chicano/Latino studies at the University of Wisconsin, told us via email that the president is conflating two different issues and misusing statistics.
“The claim that immigrants are less crime prone refers exactly to the type of findings [from his study and the one from Cato]: that the rate of crime within the immigrant community is lower than the rate of crime among U.S. citizens. OR, that communities with high levels of immigrants tend to have lower crime rates than communities with fewer immigrants,” Light said. “And those statements are not contradicted by stating the number of offenses committed by immigrants (as the President did).”
“Imagine I were to claim that women are less violent than men, which is as close to a social fact that we have in criminology,” Light said. “And one were to reply saying that this isn’t true because in 2015 over 78,000 women were arrested for violent crimes, and nearly 1,000 were arrested for homicide. Those statistics in no way contradict the original statement that men tend to be more violent.”
Research published in Social Science Quarterly in 2016 looked at rates of violent crime and drug arrests by state for 2012 to 2014 and compared them with statistics on the foreign‐born and Mexican nationals living in the United States, as well as estimates of the undocumented foreign and undocumented Mexican population by state. The study found no association between immigrant population size and increased violent crime, though it found a “small but significant association between undocumented immigrant populations and drug-related arrests.”
Interestingly, a Pew Research Center report in 2013 found that crime rates rise among second-generation immigrants, more closely mirroring the rates of other native-born residents. Some researchers say this is a result of assimilation and simply “catching-up” to their peers.
Numerous other studies have found that immigrants overall — including those with legal status — do not commit crimes at a higher rate than non-immigrants, and that higher concentrations of immigrants do not lead to higher rates of violent crime. A recap of the literature on this topic can be found here. But those studies don’t look specifically at illegal immigration.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Jul 27, 2018 - 08:46pm PT
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Why don't the both of you state your name and credentials ?
I have posted my name on ST--in some ways I regret it as I've been cyberstalked in small ways at least (people posting things about me that I've never posted, but that would be easy to find by Googling). Armed with my name and where I live (Boulder, CO), it should take about 30 seconds to see if I'm a lawyer.
Have no idea if "Fat Dad" has posted his name and I don't really care. I'd guess he is a lawyer, but that's not exactly something to brag about!
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 27, 2018 - 08:47pm PT
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BlahBlah states:
We probably don't reflect enough on the benevolence of modern corporations--
Doeuude! What planet do you live on?
I won't cite examples, since all of us here, except you, know examples of modern corporations, causing great damage to the environment, &/or humans.
Publicly-held corporations are mandated by law to maximize returns to their shareholders. They are not mandated to be benevolent.
Some corporations may try to be benevolent, but I doubt if that word appears in very many corporate “mission statements.”
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Jul 27, 2018 - 08:48pm PT
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xcon...was the pitch fork sprayed with WD-40...?
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jul 27, 2018 - 09:34pm PT
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Uh oh. The fake lawyer is threatening me with defamation for pointing out something that he's failed to deny. Better look up the elements for defamation. Or, better yet, don't pose as someone you're not.
I thought the "benevolence of corporations" was a howler as well. But then any one who stills supports Trump occupies their own reality.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Jul 27, 2018 - 09:50pm PT
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ATG...blah blah blah is his real name....
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jul 27, 2018 - 09:58pm PT
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Takes even less than 30 seconds to see that having obtained a law license doesn't mean much
“Just so we all know, by far the easiest bar is Wisconsin’s bar, provided you went to law school in the state,” lawschooli said. “Wisconsin has a “diploma privilege” such that these students don’t even have to take the bar to pass and become full lawyers!”
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Jul 27, 2018 - 10:04pm PT
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Rudolph giulianni...Same guy that roasted all those new york firemen in the WTC by swinging the cell phone deal...?
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Lennox
climber
in the land of the blind
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Jul 27, 2018 - 10:06pm PT
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Let’s all post and weaponize each other’s typos . . .
. . . by pretending a to be non-lawyer. . .
Hey blah blah, how often do judges and juries laugh your weak and inarticulate arguments out of court?
edit—
That is what’s called a loaded question, in case they didn’t teach you that at Thomas M. Cooley.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Jul 27, 2018 - 10:10pm PT
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Jim...are you a lawyer too....?
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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Jul 27, 2018 - 10:12pm PT
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How about the Cato Institute study, or are Libertarians to liberal for your taste?
Jon Beck, looks interesting--although the analysis is Annenberg Foundation and not CATO. Looks like there is a problem with data since illegals tend to under report. I'll give both a read later plus FBI stats with an open mind. Thanks for the post.
Right now I'm using my laptop for a bit of astro photography (with very limited success) as Saturn's rings are spectacular and Mars is coming up soon. Friggin' moon is too damn bright!
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Lennox
climber
in the land of the blind
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Jul 27, 2018 - 10:19pm PT
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Don’t forget the Delta Aquariids
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Jul 27, 2018 - 10:30pm PT
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right on Jim...I got beat up by the salesians for a year...they didn't like smart-asses... and i drove by goznaga a few times on my way to the pan handle of idaho...
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