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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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They’re just not cut out for getting together and cranking out reel good rock n roll.
that would seem more the statement of opinion rather than a statement of fact.
Though I'm not sure what "reel rock n roll" is: a cross with celtic dance? the image of Meatloaf collapsing off stage? an old school rock video?
is this what you're talking about?
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Mar 11, 2018 - 10:54am PT
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obviously the rock bands we know in their fame were a product of financial investment by record companies who were looking to make a money off of the popularity of that music.
many all-woman rock bands never had the support of the record companies, especially in the early period of rock-n-roll. the production quality of, say, the Rolling Stones and the Beatles, greatly increased from their beginnings to the acme of their popularity. This wasn't because guys did it better than gals, but because of the financial investments made in the bands.
how many all-black bands made it in that period of time? strange since almost all of the foundational material used by white bands was appropriated from those rhythm and blues classics, many never correctly attributed. Robert Johnson's "Love in Vain" an example, covered by the Stones and attributed to "Jagger and Richards" usually the attribution for lyrics and melody, the ways the compensation coming from royalties are divided up... no mention of Robert Johnson there.
so it is not just the talent of the rock band that determines how far they'll go. as you know, a huge part of the mix is the promotion, and if that is not there you don't get you guy bands either, talent being the smaller part. the promotion obviously targets the audience that has the money to buy the product. an audience whose tastes often follow the promotional advertisements.
of all the bands I posted above, I actually really liked Autoclave, the music was interesting and the genre "math rock" was new to me. the low production value of the video, and the obvious limited commercial appeal of the music does not detract from the quality of the musical composition or the talent of the musicians.
comparing it with "Stairway to Heaven" would be absurd
but maybe you have other facts...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Mar 11, 2018 - 11:33am PT
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...not at all what I said, but you're entitled to your opinion.
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Hardly Visible
Social climber
Llatikcuf WA
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Mar 11, 2018 - 11:42am PT
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Okay, not much to add here but putting up a Metallica video as a high bar for “guy” rock and roll is pretty lame. You might as well just lay the bar on the ground.
Being a good musician or having the ability to “rock” is not gender specific, those who take the time to practice will have it whether they receive critical acclaim for it or not. Critical acclaim in the past (maybe not so much anymore) was more based on what Ed said above, “the rock bands we know in their fame were a product of financial investment by record companies who were looking to make a money off of the popularity of that music”, and “This wasn't because guys did it better than gals, but because of the financial investments made in the bands” period.
Meanwhile here is a couple of gals in their very early twenties rocking out with Guthrie Govan, looks like old dads may have to step up their game.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Mar 11, 2018 - 11:45am PT
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^^^maybe it's not fair because the have dexterous little fingers...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Mar 11, 2018 - 01:05pm PT
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^^^he's no schoolboy but he knows what he likes.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Mar 11, 2018 - 01:23pm PT
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Warbler.
It's best done by girly boys...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
No wonder parents back in the day didn't want their kids to listen to these girly boys... very bad role models...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Mar 11, 2018 - 02:14pm PT
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you have a mind?
isn't that the first step?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Mar 11, 2018 - 04:41pm PT
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Mooch said:
Past all that and shifting gears, I'd have to cast my vote for all-time best musician and master of guitar work.......David Gilmour. Hands down!
I don't know much about this stuff and I don't play an instrument, and though I'm not necessarily supporting Mooch's opinion of David Gilmour's guitar playing (though I do love Gilmour's highly emotive style), and I'm not directly providing fodder for either Ed Hartouni's or Kevin Worrall's debate, I DO enjoy a wide variety of musical styles, and I get a kick out of these play-along videos!
[Click to View YouTube Video]
[Click to View YouTube Video]
[Click to View YouTube Video]
More from Tina S,
She sounds to me to be in some of this borrowing/expressing the virtuoso style of Yngwie Malmsteen?
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Mar 11, 2018 - 04:52pm PT
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I'm probably one of the few here who has supported some of Kevin's unpopular opinions or more specifically, aspects of his position here on the forum, namely that any movement can at times and in specific instances go too far, and if left unchecked through self-reflection and critical thinking, can also produce fanaticism.
Ed, Kevin:
I have no problem seeing your perspectives, and find much validity in both.
But sometimes, I sense that you each are struggling with a tug-of-war over the short ends of a very important Gordian knot.
Kevin, remember in the Hazel Findley thread where you asked Cat T whether, concerning her interest in supporting women's reproductive rights, she had tried to influence the wives of conservative lawmakers in Texas?
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=3000669&msg=3012469#msg3012469
And where I suggested there were movements started by the ecofeminists, exemplified by what Merle Lefkoff did during the wars in Bosnia to empower women as an aspect of mediation & conflict resolution and also (this second example not specifically mentioned then) Rachel Carson's book Silent Spring, which did great things for our society such as eradicating DDT, signifying an example of the productivity of the women's movement(s)?
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=3000669&msg=3012545#msg3012545
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=3000669&msg=3012581#msg3012581
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=3000669&msg=3012608#msg3012608
*links provided only for reference to earlier conversations.
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In that vein, let's try this one, an excerpt from:
Sex and War, How Biology Explains Warfare and Terrorism and Offers a Path to a Safer World, Malcolm Potts and Thomas Hayden, 2008, Benbella Books, Inc.
Pages 13-14, why supporting women's autonomy and reproductive rights may really matter in the big picture
The evolutionary perspective we take here highlights the fact that team aggression is predominately an activity of young males, and although it affects women it very often does not benefit them in a lasting way, as we will show. Women compete for resources for themselves and their offspring, and may even benefit from associations with the most aggressive, successful male leaders or groups, but their competition is not usually expressed with such violent destructiveness as among men. There are women gangsters, warriors, and terrorists, of course, just as there have been great female military leaders. But despite some fanciful misinterpretations of prehistory and anthropology, women have never shared men's propensity to band together spontaneously and sally forth to viciously attack their neighbors.
The same can be said for older males, who may well gain more from war as generals than the young do as foot soldiers, but who also generally have much more to lose. We will show that societies where the proportion of young males to older males is high are often particularly prone to conflict – and that one way to reduce the risk of violence is to empower women and maximize their role in society.
This is perhaps the most profound insight to come from taking an evolutionary perspective on war: empowering women reduces the risk of violent conflict. Far from being a politically correct notion of feminist philosophy, women's role in reducing the risk of war is born out by rigorous study and historical experience. We will argue that contemporary Western nations have a great opportunity to make the world more secure and reduce terrorism by doing everything they can to empower women who live in countries where they currently enjoy few choices and wield little or no political power.
There is a clear and important evolutionary link between this biological perspective on war and Martha's and my work in family planning. For most women, the first step toward autonomy and equality is the ability to choose when to have children, and how many to have. From Italy to Iran, it is an empirical fact that wherever women have access to modern family planning, family size always falls. This is of crucial interest at a time when rapidly growing human population stresses our infrastructure and social systems, and threatens what remains of the natural environment. Reducing birthrates can also have a dramatic effect on the prospects for peace by reducing competition for resources and lowering the ratio of testosterone-filled young men to older men and women in the population. By understanding this and other biological dynamics underlying war, we can begin to see our way toward taking real, effective action to reduce war's likelihood and limit its destructive potential.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Mar 11, 2018 - 04:53pm PT
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Rock and Roll Hall of Fame?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_and_Roll_Hall_of_Fame#Criticism
Criticism
The most frequent criticism of the Hall of Fame is that the nomination process is controlled by a few individuals who are not themselves musicians, such as founder Jann Wenner (co-founder and editor-in-chief of Rolling Stone magazine), former foundation director Suzan Evans, and writer Dave Marsh, reflecting their personal tastes rather than the views of the rock world as a whole. A former member of the nominations board once commented that "At one point Suzan Evans lamented the choices being made because there weren't enough big names that would sell tickets to the dinner. That was quickly remedied by dropping one of the doo-wop groups being considered in favor of a 'name' artist ... I saw how certain pioneering artists of the '50s and early '60s were shunned because there needed to be more name power on the list, resulting in '70s superstars getting in before the people who made it possible for them. Some of those pioneers still aren't in today."[41] Sister Rosetta Tharpe is often considered "The Godmother/Grandmother of Rock & Roll",[42][43] but was not chosen for induction until 2017. Also, the influential soul/funk group Tower of Power has not yet been honored. Velvet Underground drummer Maureen Tucker has dismissed the Hall of Fame as the "Hall of Lame".[44]
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Mar 11, 2018 - 05:02pm PT
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But sometimes, I sense that you each are struggling with a tug-of-war over the short ends of a very important Gordian knot.
for my part, I have only argued that Kevin seems to take a rather simple view of the vastly complex issue, without examining his underlying assumptions, particularly of the "data" he marshals.
Sexual dimorphism is an entirely non-controversial phenomenon, it exists in the primates and in humans.
What that has to do with Rock 'n' Roll, or rock climbing is not at all obvious, and Kevin's argument as to why it does matter is not at all convincing.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Mar 11, 2018 - 05:51pm PT
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Thanks for reading my longer post, Kevin.
I know it is somewhat off-topic and more far-reaching.
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Well, of the three women covering Comfortably Numb, from the standpoint of tone and feeling, I prefer Sylwia Urban's effort (1st of the 3 YouTube links) to that of Emily Rose Hastings' or Tina S'.
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Definitely an astounding technician, le petite juene fille
Soul, melody, blues roots?
Not so much
Great guitarists, and great musicians in general, use changes in tempo and empty space to make their music great. ^^^
And regarding your assessment of Tina's work (4th YouTube link), given that it is for me, similar to Malmsteen's neoclassical metal playing style, YES.
(It may also be due to her more feminine inner workings. I don't know. I'll let somebody else provide counterpoint to that notion in particular).
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Mar 11, 2018 - 06:24pm PT
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_audition
the same words used by Warbler were used by Orchestra masters and conductors regarding non-white-male musicians, but only when they knew who the musicians were. Once the auditions were done blind, the number of these under-represented musicians increased dramatically.
The test for Warbler would be to distinguish a rock performance without knowing the gender of the musicians. My guess is that he would say he could do it, my guess is that he couldn't.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Mar 11, 2018 - 06:28pm PT
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Ed,
The bias proven (I think we can say it was proven, yes?) in the selection of players by orchestral masters is one of the most salient and important examples you've brought forth in all of these discussions.
Blind performance auditions, much research has proven, often results in the hiring of more women and minorities because it eliminates the opportunities for bias to influence who makes the cut. ^^^
From the Wikipedia link in the prior post by Ed.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Mar 11, 2018 - 06:31pm PT
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I think I brought it up before (in another thread)... but it never hurts to reiterate in these discussions
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