Bicycles to be allowed in the Wilderness?!

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monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 22, 2017 - 06:51pm PT
Post up a few links to people who think land managers are required to give access. I could not find any. "maximum extent practicable" is not a requirement.

It is left to the local official to determine "maximum extent practicable". If it's not practicable, then it's no.
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Dec 22, 2017 - 08:28pm PT
Couple of you have indicated that you view McClintock as a tool. That's probably true. You also say he's trying to drive a wedge between user groups.

Based on the comments of TMJesse and MtnYoung upthread, seems like the wedge is already there. No compromises for them, and threats apparently necessary.

So instead of trying to find a compromise by allowing bikes in some areas(not on the JMT) and getting bikers on your side in protecting our public lands, you'd rather let the issue fester. Let more Wilderness Areas be created where bikers had been allowed, resulting in even more pissed off bikers.
seano

Mountain climber
none
Dec 22, 2017 - 09:24pm PT
A second reason is history (this is why horses are and always have been in Wilderness).
This is also why horses are and always have been on federal highways. Oh... they aren't anymore? Nevermind...
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Dec 22, 2017 - 09:25pm PT
DMT, just about every rider who's posted here has stated that they oppose bikes in the wilderness.
Risk

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Dec 22, 2017 - 09:35pm PT
and threats apparently necessary.

Let more Wilderness Areas be created where bikers had been allowed, resulting in even more pissed off bikers

Says it all!
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 23, 2017 - 12:32pm PT
Post up a few links to people who think land managers are required to give access. I could not find any. "maximum extent practicable" is not a requirement.

It is left to the local official to determine "maximum extent practicable". If it's not practicable, then it's no.

This is the language of a law, and therefore must be read in a legal way.
It is designed to create lawsuits for any manager that determines "no", which has been very effective in damaging the various agencies. (see High Sierra Hikers vs Sierra National Forest, Inyo National Forest---caused over half their budget to be diverted by court order)

How would one determine "maximum extent practicable'? Would it require public hearings? would it require fundraising events? Would it require the formation of volunteer support organizations? If you didn't do any of that, would a court rule against you?
monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 23, 2017 - 01:15pm PT
Everything can be litigated, when the language is not absolutely no or yes. How would you word it to allow a land manager to make the decision without letting them decide no due to their personal whims?

As a land manager I would consult with a range of experts to determine the effects on the particular are of interest. And the maximum extent practicable would be those areas that would have minimal impact, leaving the rest as closed to bikes.

And it seems you found no links to support your absolutely required interpretation.

Mclintock:

"Let me make this very clear: It in no way interferes with the discretion provided in other regulations and laws that gives land managers the ability to close or restrict the use of trails according to site-specific conditions. These agencies have always had authority for example, to prohibit access if a trail is damaged or is incompatible with other uses, and that authority is undisturbed by this law," he said.
Hard Rock

Trad climber
Montana
Dec 23, 2017 - 03:33pm PT
Some wilderness sure. In Montana we have less bikers, less hikers. I've built mountain bike trails - 15 to 20 years old and they have no erosion. We also have fall line hiking trails with erosion. The solution is to build them right.

2 other points. Had Land Managers send me out to do timber inventory by myself. We use to have a partner. Had griz walk through my plots and had my dog worn me (illegal partners according to regs). Don't think that LAND MANAGERS have any great knowledge (other examples from my Forest Service union steward available with a stamp self address envelope).

The other point - why does everyone think they should hike without any danger. If a bear ate you nobody would say anything. When the hikers speed (as in above the speed limit) with their car to the trail head passing me (on my bike) in my space - they don't think that's a problem.

I once came down a hill to a stream with 2 hikers and a kid on the other side. The mother grab the kid while I was still on the other side. Pulling the kid to her she trip, fell on the kid and they both ended up on the ground. I was in a track stand on the other side and the second hikers told the mother: "You should have let the biker hit him (the kid). It would have been less damage.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 23, 2017 - 06:04pm PT
Everything can be litigated, when the language is not absolutely no or yes. How would you word it to allow a land manager to make the decision without letting them decide no due to their personal whims?

As a land manager I would consult with a range of experts to determine the effects on the particular are of interest. And the maximum extent practicable would be those areas that would have minimal impact, leaving the rest as closed to bikes.

And it seems you found no links to support your absolutely required interpretation.

I provided the EXACT LANGUAGE of the bill.

I would not state that you are free to make the decision that you think is best-----and that you will open it to the maximum amount possible. If you are not smart enough to understand what the law just told you to do, you don't qualify for the job.

Cute little Congressmen put in traps and gimmicks. You apparently support this one.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Dec 23, 2017 - 06:39pm PT
monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 23, 2017 - 06:41pm PT
Well Ken, you still have not found anyone on the net who agrees with you that the language requires bike access to every wilderness trail. It's very telling that you persist in that nonsense.

Mclintock:

"Let me make this very clear: It in no way interferes with the discretion provided in other regulations and laws that gives land managers the ability to close or restrict the use of trails according to site-specific conditions. These agencies have always had authority for example, to prohibit access if a trail is damaged or is incompatible with other uses, and that authority is undisturbed by this law," he said.
Risk

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Dec 27, 2017 - 09:09pm PT
It's gotten so bad that there is now very little support among the hiking community for a proposal to expand North Cascades National Park.

Nothing like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. For decades, NPS has put unreasonable quotas on may trailheads for no other reason than "they can." Once in 1997, I was denied a permit for a beach backpack at Pt. Reyes. Went for a day hike instead and saw no one there at all at the backcountry camping area. Ever since, my regard for NPS and access has been in the toilet.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 27, 2017 - 09:26pm PT
https://www.scpr.org/programs/take-two/2017/12/22/60867/u-s-house-proposes-bill-to-allow-mountain-bikes-in/

It is the camel's nose under the tent. There's the bill itself, which is only about four sentences long, and the bill just says without qualification that bikes will be allowed in the wilderness preservation system. Proponents say it will give land mangers a chance to pick and choose where they go, but the bill doesn't say that.

https://www.bicycling.com/culture/imba-wilderness-areas-house-bill

The International Mountain Bicycling Association (IMBA) announced Wednesday that it will not support a bill pending in Congress that would potentially open federally protected Wilderness areas to mountain bikes. The announcement came as IMBA submitted its voluntary official testimony on the bill before a House subcommittee hearing.

“We know Wilderness hits some mountain bikers’ backyards, and we understand why those riders support this legislation,” IMBA President Dave Wiens said in a statement that acknowledged the bill's support within the mountain-bike community. But it also reaffirmed IMBA’s position that the advocacy group will not seek to reopen existing Wilderness areas—lands untouched by human development and managed by the federal government—to bikes.
monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 27, 2017 - 09:55pm PT
Impact of bikes and hikers on trails? About the same.

http://www.americantrails.org/resources/ManageMaintain/WKeenImpacts.html

https://www.imba.com/resources/research/trail-science/natural-resource-impacts-mountain-biking
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 28, 2017 - 10:30am PT
We've found that hikers have the same effect as bikers do, regardless of the number of trips along the path.

Huh? You do the same damage going down a trail once as if you travel it a thousand times?

How many trips can a biker make a day vs a hiker?

Is the correct measure trips or hours of travel?

t-bone

climber
Bishop
Dec 28, 2017 - 12:17pm PT
Lifting the bike ban on a few obscure/remote "wilderness" areas will go unnoticed by 99.99% of the ignorant posters on here. Nobody is actually proposing the John Muir, Kings Cyn, etc. Not gonna happen, as it's obvious too many folks are opposed. But many remote areas ARE compatible with bikes.

Look at the map:

http://www.wilderness.net/map.cfm

Is there really any harm in allowing bikes on existing roads in the Sylvania, White Mt, Piper, and similar areas? Even the currently legal roads/ trails in these regions see next to no traffic. Let's face the reality...remote, distance, cross-country biking really isn't that popular and this bill would affect very few of us.

Interesting thoughts on the legal issues KenM but who would fight an agency closure?, obviously not IMBA

Here's the bill, from what I could find on google...

Section 4 of the Wilderness Act (16 U.S.C. 1133(c)) is amended by adding at the end of subsection (d) the following: “(8) Allowable uses. Each agency administering any area designated as wilderness may allow the use of motorized wheelchairs, non-motorized wheelchairs, non-motorized adaptive cycles, non-motorized bicycles, non-motorized strollers, non-motorized wheelbarrows, non-motorized survey wheels, non-motorized measuring wheels, or non-motorized game carts within any wilderness area. For the purposes of this paragraph, the term ‘wheelchair’ means a device designed solely for use by a mobility-impaired person for locomotion, that is suitable for use in an indoor pedestrian area.

Risk

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Dec 28, 2017 - 03:19pm PT
Lifting the bike ban on a few obscure/remote "wilderness" areas will go unnoticed by 99.99% of the ignorant posters on here.

What is an "obscure/remote "wilderness" area?" For those areas so designated by Congress, Wilderness is capitalized. As for the 99.99%, what percentage of the posters here fall into that group?

Ignorance aside, this amendment doesn't spell the end of Wilderness. For one thing, it appears that each agency would need to propose new rules that would be subject to public comment prior to publishing new regulations (CFR). That process takes years.

Up thread there's chatter about environmental impacts, primarily to the land. The most adverse impact would be social impacts to traditional Wilderness users by the intrusion.

Imagine what all the stock users thought when all the backpackers started showing up in the 1960's?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 28, 2017 - 08:59pm PT
T-bone, you only quoted PART of the bill.
monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 28, 2017 - 09:07pm PT
Ken M, you are confused by the old bill S.3205, which is dead from the 114th congress. The current active bill is H.R.1349 from the 115th congress, amended in December, 2017.

And can't you see that H.R.1349 is completely at odds with your interpretation of 'require'? That should have been a clue.

Bad Climber

Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
Dec 29, 2017 - 07:03am PT
Interesting studies re. impacts. Selective access seems okay to me, but the selection is crucial. As a hiker, however, I'm less than thrilled at the prospect of gonzo mtb'ers bombing down trails. After all, braj, gotta become a GoPro HERO! One aspect of the studies linked was that trail erosion, while not really different between hikers and cyclists, was increased because overall use was increased: i.e. you'll get a bunch of biker trips that would not translate into hiker trips if bikes are prohibited. That seems like a reasonable assumption. Would mtb'ers ditch the bike to hike a given trail, or would they move on until they could find a trail where the bikes would be allowed? Bikers are gonna bike, yes? So on those trails where mtb's would be allowed, overall use would likely go up, thus increasing erosion.

Anyone who's been on a trail with horses knows they are the worst! Not a fan, although we did employ a packer once to haul in some gear into the Winds. I only wish we'd employed him to haul it out, too! Ugh trudge.

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