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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Dec 17, 2017 - 04:18pm PT
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Bachar was (likely) saying he was testing out potential hook placements as he went without weighting them, Even looking at the placement and knowing it’s there is a sense of security subsequent ascents are not expected to have. It is whatever it was, but it definitely wasn’t as bold as the next guy who went up there.
My point is not about runouts, it’s about the question of what experience this climber was expected to have as she repeated the ascent. Is she a freeclimber following the path of a freeclimber, or is she just following the smoke, ego, laziness and manufactured danger of someone who did not OS free the route from the ground as she is attempting to do?
Yeah, the vast majority care and fix things up for a real OS climber, no drama, and yeah this is just a stupid little 5.8 out in po dunk. The attitude of a member of the FA here saying tough luck that’s the nature of the beast though - it rubs me the wrong way. I’m very thankful to not be sitting in a coma right now after surviving 100’s of these experiences over the years - trying to OS free something put up by an aid climber.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Dec 17, 2017 - 06:58pm PT
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I have a question, when people are rap bolting are they aid climbing? So the rap bolters have no idea what the onsighter will experience either? Yes, exactly my point, and they generally don't try to pass it off as anything other than construction work.
Fair enough, I spoke, so did you, this is a place to discuss such things.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Dec 17, 2017 - 09:52pm PT
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2. Trip and Fall at Downtown Disney
In another case, Etheredge v. Walt Disney World Co., a teenager named Jalayna Jones Etheredge, who was 15 years old at the time, was taking part in a family vacation at the campground in Disney’s Fort Wilderness, over the Fourth of July holiday. That evening, Jalayna and her friends were on their way to meet Jalayna’s parents for dinner at Downtown Disney when Jalayna stepped off the curb in the parking lot, falling in such a way that her ankle was pinned in a storm drain. It was an accident that resulted in the teen having to undergo four different surgeries.
Her argument for damages here was based upon Disney failing in its duty to protect visitors in how they traveled from the parking lot to Downtown Disney. There was no claim that the parking lot had a design defect, for instance, or that there was a hidden danger: the teenager volunteered that she was having fun and not looking at where she was going.
Key here to Disney’s liability: the pathway provided by the theme park moved guests from the parking lot to the street through landscaped plant beds where the path then led visitors, like Jalayna, to cross the street at the storm drain. The court held that Disney had a duty of care in how the business invitees were encouraged to travel from the parking lot to Downtown Disney via this path.
What Should You Do?
A good piece of advice if you have been harmed by a slip and fall on a Disney or other theme park property, is to speak with an experienced personal injury lawyer before you file a claim to learn about some of the issues that can arise with these claims, including the type of evidence needed to prove a claim and the type and amount of damages you can recover. Most personal injury lawyers, like Alan Sackrin, will offer a free initial consultation (over the phone or in person) to answer your questions.
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Just saying
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t-bone
climber
Bishop
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Dec 17, 2017 - 10:39pm PT
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Apparently I enjoy the result of "ego, laziness and manufactured danger". I like most all of the Gorge routes and I'm a wuss. Odd comparison to Smith too- does anyone truly think the Gorge is more runout?.
Yea, bolting on this route could have been better but it isn't (wasn't?) THAT bad. You could tell what you're getting into by looking at it from the ground. In normal circumstances you wouldn't deck from a fall off this route, but sh#t happens.
I hope the injured girl has a quick recovery.
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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Dec 18, 2017 - 12:13am PT
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Variety is important. We don't need all the bolted 5.8s to have a bolt every 20', and we don't need them all to have a bolt every 5'. Being able to choose your challenge to match how you feel on a given day is one of the things that makes climbing satisfying. The fact that a person is injured on a given route doesn't necessarily mean that the route needs to sanitized, or that all routes have to fit some standardized plan. I'm sorry that a person was hurt in the route in question, but nevertheless, getting hurt is always a possibility, even on standard gym-style routes, or even in the gym.
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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Dec 18, 2017 - 06:49am PT
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Ohm and a stick clip Is Bad's Mo.
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Dec 18, 2017 - 07:15am PT
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We thought we were putting in a lot of bolts and that the climbs were quite friendly.
To back up Marty...
1st climbed in the Gorge in the late 80's. We were blown away with how many and how close the bolts were.
Time changes perspective.
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Bethesda
Trad climber
Bethesda
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Dec 19, 2017 - 03:02am PT
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Belated two cents --
It seems to me that there is an underlying question that needs to be addressed here, namely, who has primary responsibility for maximizing safety? I would say that, when outdoors, given the many changing factors, i.e., weather conditions, possible changes to the rock, etc., the primary responsibility has to be the climber's. The climber is in the best position to assess the situation on the rock and her/his own abilities at the relevant point in time. The climber has to make a continuous assessment of the situation and has to be prepared to back off if advisable. The climber cannot assume that the route is safe, that all holds are solid or that protection is adequate. And it does not matter whether the climber is a beginner or not. It is in the very nature of climbing outdoors that the climber must assume the responsibility of judging the situation (and this includes judging the quality of the belay). Every beginner, particularly beginners who have only climbed in the gym, need to learn to exercise judgment and she/he needs to leqrn it fast.
For this reason, I am afraid that focusing attention on the quality of the bolting implies a wrong message -- that there is such a thing as a guaranteed safe climbing experience outdoors.
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Dec 19, 2017 - 04:08am PT
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my $0.02...^^+1
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 19, 2017 - 07:35am PT
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++ to Bethesada and Jebus. There has been some good discussion here, but, yeah, ultimately, responsibility lies with the climber. I wouldn't have it any other way.
Re. sketchy 3rd bolts: Over on Big Tower area, we did a little rig called "Naked Gun"--fun, steep 10, but as I pulled through the rather low crux and clipped the 3rd bolt, I realized a grounder was definitely possible with a blown clip. Watch yer stuff, kidz.
Thanks for the insights, Marty.
BAd
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Dec 19, 2017 - 07:47am PT
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Every beginner, particularly beginners who have only climbed in the gym, need to learn to exercise judgment and she/he needs to leqrn it fast. So this girl learns that judgement on some number of routes while working up the grades, she was wearing a helmet in a sport area after all, then one day winds up in a coma on a well known oddball with a manufacturing defect. I don’t think your arguement applies here. It’s kind of a simple and cliche one as well.
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ExfifteenExfifteen
climber
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Dec 19, 2017 - 08:08am PT
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I just never could understand some of the points that are being made. Climbing is dangerous, it ain't a Disneyland ride. Every piece of equipment i have bought since the 80's said so. You can die on your glorious, fun and happy climb.
All responsibility falls on the climber. ALL!!! If you don't like it, I suggest you don't climb. Once you leave the ground you are on your own. Blaming it on the FA's ego and poor protection placement is moot... and plain old stupid.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Dec 19, 2017 - 08:43am PT
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Thank you Marty for your level headed posts.
Bethesda, Bomz and X15X15.... you guys hit the nail on the head, squarely.
I hope the Climber is improving.
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couchmaster
climber
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Dec 19, 2017 - 08:54am PT
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Thanks Marty, JLP and most OF ALL Dan for the added bolt to keep the next person out of the dirt.
Best wishes of healing to the young lady.
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selfish man
Gym climber
Austin, TX
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Dec 19, 2017 - 09:02am PT
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It's ironic how the same individuals who tell the badly injured girl to toughen up because climbing ain't Disneyland she thought it was, are also accusing JLP of the disrespect to the injured.
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ExfifteenExfifteen
climber
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Dec 19, 2017 - 09:22am PT
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selfish man: It's ironic how the same individuals who tell the badly injured girl to toughen up because climbing ain't Disneyland she thought it was, are also accusing JLP of the disrespect to the injured.
lmfao... wow!!! totally dumbfounded. the Disneyland post was directed at the points being slung on the Taco. And you read that its telling the girl to toughen up. WOW!!! you don't read much, do you? It has nothing to do with tough, and everything to do with self-preservation, mr. selfish man... All that other crap is nonsense. I don't care what anyone says, climbing is deadly and it is a stupid activity that I can't give up. Shite happens in a blink of an eye and you die. space dust. join the carbon club. the girl is lucky she is still here, alive, and it sounds like it was just luck of the cards. I am very glad she is still alive and she has quite a story to tell. Hoping for full recovery.
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Alexey
climber
San Jose, CA
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Dec 19, 2017 - 12:01pm PT
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I think the discussion started by JLP was very interesting and not offending to injured climber[ wish her the best recovery as possible] it was well arguments from both points of view - JLP and Marty, and looks very civil.
Especially in comparison with similar discussion started [ end never ended] about Punchline at ArchRock in 1986
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Lassitude 33
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Dec 19, 2017 - 04:08pm PT
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I am always saddened when I hear of a climbing accident, particularly one involving a young person who obviously enjoys the outdoors.
My sincere best wishes for a full recovery.
A lot of us have survived situations that could have had equally (or worse) outcomes. Climbing is dangerous, something that many people do not fully appreciate and the line between fun and tragedy can be very thin indeed.
I commend Marty for the very thoughtful (and right-on) response to what I'll categorize as "misinformed" commentary. Bethesda's comments mirror ideas swimming around in my feeble brain.
But, this being the Internet, even the most reasoned and irrefutable truths are met with confrontation, ad hominen, mis-direction and falsity.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 19, 2017 - 04:46pm PT
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Anyone who's upset take a deep breath of life ......
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Bethesda
Trad climber
Bethesda
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Dec 20, 2017 - 04:13am PT
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Sketchy --
Hardly a new thought.
After the 1865 accident on the Matterhorn, Queen Victoria considered banning British subjects from participating in mountain climbing and Edward Whymper penned the following:
"Climb if you will but remember that courage and strength are naught without prudence, and that a momentary negligence may destroy the happiness of a lifetime. Do nothing in haste, look well to each step, and from the beginning think what might be the end."
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